Paradise 8 Casino - Player's winnings have been reduced.

I deposited $1,000 and lost part of it, at some point I redeemed points which appeared for cash, it gave me $700 in cash balance. So that together with my $1,000 which became mixed together, I got up to $7,178. Eugene from Paradise8 told me that I was limited to $100 dollars because I used a "freebie", despite the fact that I explained to him I also deposited and used my $1,000 to win the same.

He claimed that they were making an exception for me to show how great they treat their VIP Players by giving me $500 instead of $1,000. Paradise8 deleted the rest of the money.

Paradise8 stole $6,678 from me by deleting it and not paying it out. At all times my balance showed as an available cash balance to withdraw. At no point was there any indication that any part of my funds were merely bonus funds or restricted in any fashion or limited in any fashion. They fact that the points redeemed for cash became mixed in with the $1,000 cash balance I deposited certainly would not give have the effect of limiting my entire balance to $100 that’s preposterous.

Imagine someone deposits $10,000 and wins $50,000 and at some point redeemed points that appear for cash. That certainly would not limit that person to cash out $100 and have the rest deleted from their entire account and balance. That would be terribly absurd but that is that what Paradise8 did to me.

I have attached a screenshot showing the exact amount that Paradise8 stole, and to which I was entitled to have paid out to me as winnings using both my deposited $1,000 and points redeemed for cash balance.

Dear Law0451,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem. Please allow me to ask you a few questions, so I can understand the whole situation completely. Could you please post here (or forward me) screenshots of your bonus and deposit history? Did you activate any deposit bonuses on top of the deposit?

Additionally, please forward all the relevant communication between you and the casino to kristina.s@casino.guru. Alternatively, you can post it here.

I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you very much in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Kristina

Hi I've attached screenshots as requested of both my deposit history showing my 2 successful deposits of $500 as well as the bonus I accepted for both deposits, and screenshots of my communications with Eugene at Paradise8 who stole all my winnings as well as the money I deposited.

Thank you very much for your reply, Law0451. Could you please forward me your game history?

I requested my gaming history as a PDF but Paradise8 did not provide it. It's way too many pages to try to take a screenshot of all of. It's just got tons of wagers on slots and table games. Should I just sent you a screenshot of the last few pages were I won most of the money?

Hi here are screenshots of the last 5 pages which has most of my winnings since I played big bets of blackjack. Before that is probably hundreds of pages with slot wagers.

Thank you very much, Law0451, for your cooperation, but in this case the whole game history will be needed. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Matej (matej@casino.guru) who will be at your service. I wish you the best of luck and hope the problem will be resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.  

Hello Law0451,

I am sorry to hear about your troubles.

I would like to invite the casino representative into the case:

Dear casino representative, could you please check the case and explain to us what happened?

Please also provide me with the player's game log. (matej@casino.guru)

Thank you for letting us know.

We will do our best to address all claims with proof attached.

• We have been in personal contact with the customer and tried to explain to him where his mistake lies. Unfortunately, we can see that our goodwill and gestures are not appreciated.

• Please take a look at screenshot 1:

1. On February 19th, the customer deposited $500 (which is shown as a deposit)
2. On top of that, a bonus was claimed (shown as PROMOCRED)
3. In order after that, the comp points were redeemed to his balance (shown as COMPSCRED)

• Please take a look at screenshot 2:

In this screenshot, you can see his wager history, which shows that the customer did play his deposit down to zero, or 0.50 if to be exact, making his new balance 765.50, and not at all $7,178 as he claims.

Therefore, although the max cash out on any free play is set to $100 for new players, we decided to send $500 as a VIP gesture.

Thank you for your understanding.

VIP Support

Paradise8

So $765 was the amount I was credited when I redeemed the points! Then I kept playing and winnings and that’s how I got the balance to $7,178. If you look at my wager history you will see on one most of this money placing large wagers on Dragon Blackjack. In fact I won $3,750 in the last hand I played as you can see from the screenshots!

So even if there was a restriction on the cash back, after the point the money is mine. And instead of withdrawing right away the $765 which was reduced to $500, I decided to use what was already MY MONEY to win and get the account to $7,178. It’s the same as though I just cashed out the $500 "good gesture" then deposited $500 to my account and won $7,178.

What Paradise8 is missing is that the freeplay after being given to me (even max redemption of $500 from the points) AFTER being given to me it’s then MY MONEY and any winnings I make off my money need to be paid out. Again, this is the same idea as me withdrawing the $765 in freeplay and it being reduced to $500 then me depositing $500 to my account and winning.

The freeplay indeed was only $765 so the only proper reduction even saying arguendo we go with their claimed restriction is $165. So they still need to pay the winnings that came AFTER I had already been given the freeplay.

Also you can see it in the screenshots that Paradise8 provided showing that there was $6,678 remaining in my account after the $500 withdrawal was processed. At bottom the $6,678 is legitimate winnings, NOT freeplay. I’m fine with them reducing the $765 to $500, but they also deleted my $6,678 in winnings!

Here's two additional screenshots. The first shows after the last hand I played of Dragon Blackjack where I won $3,750 in one hand. Then the second shows my balance after I had put in the $500 withdrawal request. So I won these funds after the withdrawal request was already placed. It's amazing how Paradise8 characterizing their stealing of my $6,678 as as "goodwill and gesture" that should have been appreciated.

Dear Law0451,

As you can see from the casino terms:

6.8. Free bonuses (Comps, Free Chips, converted Comp Points or any other non-deposit bonuses) are playable bonuses awarded to players so they may play free of charge. Free bonuses have a different wagering requirement than other bonuses, and have a fixed withdrawal limit of no more than 100 Credits (100 $,€,£,AUD, or 1000 ZAR). Any remaining or extra balance is 'Non-Withdrawable' and is to be cleared from a player's balance. Each player is allowed to withdraw winnings from a free bonus only once during his/her gaming lifetime unless specifically approved by the casino manager.

Here the logic is simple - you redeemed the comp points in the amount of $765.5, and these comp points had a value of ($100). That was the real money amount you could get from this promotion. Because the casino didn't cap your balance to $100 before you reached a balance of $7188, I believe that you should get $100 as stated in the terms and conditions. (the value of the comp points didn't change)

Hi Matej, the withdrawal limit is on the bonus amount. The winnings has nothing to do with the $765.5 in freeplay.

If you look at the casinos response, they they didn’t even realize their mistake. See supra ("you can see his wager history, which shows that the customer did play his deposit down to zero, or 0.50 if to be exact, making his new balance 765.50, and not at all $7,178 as he claims.")

The withdrawal limit is on the freeplay alone which is 765.50. Again the casinos statement that my balance was "not at all $7,178" shows they were not aware that I also had winnings in my balance.

Matej, take a look again at the language it very clearly applies the $100 limit only to the awarded freeplay which here is $765.50. The rest of the balance accrued from winnings is not subject to restriction. Again also look at the casinos response where they did not even realize from their own records and screenshots extant here, that I even had a balance of $7,178.

Again, the language of the terms explains "Any remaining or extra balance is 'Non-Withdrawable' and is to be cleared from a player's balance." This refers to the extra balance in the point redemption itself.

So here there was $765.50 as a result of the redemption, that means there was indeed an extra $665.50 that the casino was authorized to zero out. However, the winnings of $7,078 is not freeplay.

I see that you responded Matej rather then Paradise8 and I believe they were about to respond on this thread recognizing that there was a mix up on their end. As shown by their prior statement they were not even aware that I had $7,178 rather than $765.50 due to my legitimate winnings.

I provide an example for clarity, imagine I had withdrawn right away and been given the $500 in freeplay as occurred. Then I deposit the $500 back and played and won the same $7,000. Would that be any different? The answer is no.

Hi Matej, so something else to keep in mind is that there is no rollover with this freeplay. So I couldn't just withdrawn it right away. Instead, they give this freeplay expecting we will continue playing with it not just withdraw it immediately. The winnings is separate from the freeplay. If you look at the screenshot provided by Paradise8 you will see that my winnings were manually cleared out.

If the points redemption would have given me $7,178 then yes the proper payout would've been $100. Here however, only $765.50 is freeplay, that's the amount subject to a reduction to $100, and nothing else. That's what the terms and conditions stipulate.

Dear Law0451,

For comp points, the logic is the same as for the welcome bonus. You can play as long as you want and have even a million on your account; however, you can win only a certain amount (in this case, $100).

In your case, you got $765.5, and until the casino cap this money to $100, it is still a bonus with max winnings of $100.

If we follow your logic and split the $765.5 into $100 real money and $665.5 bonus money with no value:

We should use the logic that real money is used first.

In this case, you lost a real part of the money in the next round, where you made a bet of $250 and lost.

Your winnings of $7,178 would be yours only if you start building this balance from $100 (already capped money)

It would be starting with $500 of real money since the casino already decided on reducing the $766.50 to $500. So off that $500 I was still able to win everything.

Therefore, although the max cash out on any free play is set to $100 for new players, we decided to send $500 as a VIP gesture.

This decision came after you won $7178, so assuming that you would have $500 winnings from the bonus is incorrect.

Still, this logic applies:

For comp points, the logic is the same as for the welcome bonus. You can play as long as you want and have even a million on your account; however, you can win only a certain amount (in this case, $100).

I am sorry, but in this case, we cant help you. It is obvious that you have won from comp points, and maximum winnings from comp points are set to $100.

Then why did they say "the customer did play his deposit down to zero, or 0.50 if to be exact, making his new balance 765.50, and not at all $7,178 as he claims."

It sounds like they were confused, that they don't realize that I was credited 765 and then won about $7k off that. It just doesn't make sense that they would want player's to withdraw freeplay right away. The whole point of freeplay is casinos want players to use it to continue playing, not to cash it out right away. What makes more sense is that the language intended to limit the point redemption to a maximum of $100 in freeplay, not winnings accrued using that freeplay afterwards. Maybe you should let Paradise8 respond to clarify their policy. It's hard to believe that Paradise8 would claim that the $100 limitation extends to winnings as that would encourage people to cash out their money right away and not continue wagering. And that's really what casinos want is for people to keep playing, because the longer you play, well, you know.

Dear Law0451,

All free bonuses are designed to keep players playing when out of real money. The idea is to create a routine of playing, and free bonuses are an ideal tool. Because this bonus is free, winnings must have some limits. Otherwise, players will play only by taking free bonuses and not making deposits, and casinos will eventually go bankrupt.

So I am sorry again, but the casino is right in this case.

Hi Law0451,

Our reply was addressing your initial claim which started the thread:

"So that together with my $1,000 which became mixed together, I got up to $7,178"

As proven earlier in this thread, this was simply not the case, and real money was not mixed in your winning balance.

Thank you again for your understanding.

Paradise8

Well I think we can go ahead and close this complaint out now as CasinoGuru has made its decision. One that I disagree with because I think the terms allow only for the reduction of the comp amount not winnings from play that follow after.

But people will be able to see that I won $7k and it was not paid out, and winnings were limited to $100. As Paradise8 admits above the points were redeemed "making his new balance 765.50, and not at all $7,178". But instead of simply reducing the 765 comp balance Paradise8 also deleted all the $7k winnings. People should know what Paradise8 does with winnings. Clearly, in my opinion, it shows Paradise8 can't be trusted to pay legitimate winnings.

Dear Law0451,

I am sorry you feel bad about the case; however, you shouldn't. I will try to explain to you again why the casino acted correctly.

When you redeemed comp points of value $765, these comp points most likely came with wagering (however, let's consider that they are already wagered). From this $765, you can keep only $100 because of the rule mentioned above. So you had a $765 with a value of $100, and your next bet was a $250 loss. At this point, you lost all your real money balance, and the remaining funds have no value.

In an ideal world, the casino would, right after you complete wagering, cap your winnings to $100 and consider this money as real money. However, only the best casinos do it this way, which is still not an industry standard. We are doing what we can to convince the casinos that this is how it should be.

If the casino did everything perfectly and caps your winnings right after the wagering is complete to $100, you would not be able to make such high bets and win the $7100. (maybe you would lose all, who knows) So I hope that now you see my point.

If I may give you one good piece of advice: always, when you finish wagering (any bonus), immediately make a withdrawal. There are still casinos which punish players for breaching bonus terms long after the bonus is already wagered. (which is, of course, unfair)

Dear Law0451,

We are extending the timer by 7 days. Please, be aware that in case you fail to respond in the given time frame or don’t require any further assistance, we will reject the complaint.

Due to the aforementioned reasons, this complaint will now be rejected. Thank you for your understanding, I am sorry we could not be of more help on this occasion. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you run into any issues with this or any other casino in the future.