The player from Germany has been accused of opening multiple accounts. Due to the complicated and ambiguous nature of the complaint, after reviewing available evidence and internal discussions, we ended up closing the complaint as "unresolved" and classify it as "uncertain case".
Tsars Casino - Player has been accused of opening multiple accounts.
Black points: 80
Amount: €8,599
Tsars Casino
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Unresolved
Our verdict
Uncertain case, passive regulator
UNRESOLVED
Case summary
1 year ago
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3 years ago
Translation
Hi there,
I bought free spins at Mental (Nolimit) on Tsars.Com for € 200 and won € 14,000.
That same evening I gambled away another € 5,000. To prevent this from happening again, I asked a good friend to change my password in order not to lose more.
The payout was made four times a day.
Suddenly the support came and said it was a duplicate acc and I was banned.
I hope you can help me.
Automatic translation:
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3 years ago
Dear Timbrece,
Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem.
We will contact the casino and ask for supporting evidence, but, before we do so, could you please advise if, to the best of your knowledge, there’s a possibility that someone else from your family members or neighbors has opened an account from the same IP address or device as yours or using your email address? Could you please describe how your friend changed the password? Was it from your device, or theirs? What did you mean by: "The payout was made four times a day."?
I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your reply.
Best regards,
Petronela
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3 years ago
Translation
Hi there,
thank you for taking care of the problem.
My friend, whom I asked to manage my password, is also registered on the site, but has no activity on Tsars or the server for about 4 weeks. Otherwise I have neither neighbors nor family members who work on the site.
The password has been reset on my phone. I only logged into his cell phone a few times to make a payout.
The payment request was made in accordance with the rules, € 2000 daily, maximum daily limit.
After a week I got a letter from the support where I should justify myself how it can be that 2 people (both registered on the site) with a similar password can be found on one IP address. But I am very sure that his account has not been logged into. Only a cell phone was used that was previously used by another account.
After I told support that my data volume was used up and I had too bad internet access and therefore switched to another device, the terms and conditions were copied in 4 pages, thrown at my head, my account was blocked and the profits cut. I was told that you are a good customer and that you will get your stake that you paid in on the same day (652 €) back as a gesture of goodwill, which you are not obliged to do and the management's decision has been made. I was fobbed off and accused of duplicate gaming, cheating, violating the terms and conditions and unauthorized practice in the demo games.
6 weeks ago I won the Max Win of about 33,000 times on another Nolimit Game (Goblin) with the same provider Tsars.com. It was the same way of playing, I logged on several devices that day. At work on the PC, at home on the computer, on my mobile phone on the tablet, on the mobile phone of a friend and in various wifi and the payment was approved anyway. Why not now?
I am always ready with everything you need, there are pictures, videos and chats with support.
I am a fair player who has invested a lot of time and money into this site. And still intended to do so.
thank you very much Tim
Automatic translation:
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3 years ago
der Support hat sich explizit geäußert was zum Bann geführt haben soll:
Hi Tim,
Thank you for getting back to us and thank you for your understanding.
To answer your questions in more straight forward manner:
1) Your account was blocked because it has matched with 2 other accounts in our system by password and device.
This type of behavior is not allowed, because at no point we can deduct who is the player and from who the money has originated (even if the money came from your card/bank account, it can easily be sent to you by your friend).
Because of the same password - at any point you and your friends can access all three accounts, without us knowing who is the player. Furthermore we have extensive bonus system, that can be exploited if three accounts are
connected by password.
This is also a tip for your future gambling on other websites. Don't use same devices and more importantly same passwords. This will easily be taken against you and won't be tolerated anywhere.
2) I tried to figure out why your previous withdrawals were approved:
- Maybe our system didn't detect your password match with other accounts (a technical glitch)
- Or you (your friends) changed password to the one that you have now. Thus our system found it later.
Hope this explanation helps a bit!
As I mentioned in my previous response, your last deposits will be refunded within 3-5 working days.
If any other questions arise, don't hesitate to contact us.
Sincerely,
Tsars security Team
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Ich kann bestätigen, dass die Passwörter ähnlich sind aber nicht identisch! Es wurden andere Zahlen benutzt. Außerdem wurde das Passwort auf meinem Handy erst nach Gewinn der Summe geändert!
Hoffe ich konnte etwas Licht ins dunkle bringen und Ihr könnt mir helfen.
Beste Grüße Tim
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3 years ago
Thank you very much, Timbrece, for your reply. One last thing please, could you confirm that your account has been successfully verified in the past and you received winnings from your previous game sessions?
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3 years ago
Translation
Hi there,
I can confirm, it is verified and money has also been paid out.
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Tim
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3 years ago
Thank you very much, Timbrece, for providing all the necessary information. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Peter (peter.m@casino.guru) who will be at your assistance. I wish you best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.
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2 years ago
Hi Timbrece,
I have looked at your case and understand the situation. Firstly, I have to say, it is never a good idea to use someone else's device especially if they also have an account in the same casino. All it does is cause trouble. I will contact the casino and see if I can help. I would like to invite Tsars Casino to the conversation to participate in the resolution of this complaint.
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2 years ago
Good afternoon
This case is not simple, you need to understand that we check the accounts for matches automatically, at the time of the request for withdrawal.
At the time of closing the account, there were the following statistics:
Made deposits - 2156.00 EUR
Made payouts - 8000.00 EUR
It is unlikely that such a situation can accuse us of being unfair to the player. But at the time of the next payout was found the following coincidence with another account:
The same device
The same IP address
Same password
At such coincidences, we have no right to leave the accounts open. Because we see that one person (obviously) uses two accounts, which is clearly prohibited by the rules.
On the one hand, the client's position is clear, he described the situation quite clearly. On the other hand, we can't believe the words in these things, and when the coincidence is so clear, we have to act harshly.
If the client wanted to limit his game - you can always use the temporary blocking of the account, it is available in the personal account settings.
Unfortunately, both accounts will remain blocked. Further play is not possible. We can only wish not to make similar mistakes in the future.
Best Regards
Andrei
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2 years ago
Translation
Hello everybody,
I understand that the account will be checked when paying out. I now also understand the provider's side.
And yet I find it a scandal if I restrict my account or have it temporarily blocked, I cannot make a payout.
Furthermore, no fraud can have taken place, as the password was only changed after the win. Since you can no longer log in or make a payout if you are self-excluded or restrict your account.
Yes, it was logged in on a second device that was previously logged in with another user. However, there is no activity whatsoever on this account, let alone a deposit or withdrawal.
The account was no longer used. I could understand the blocking immediately and take back all my accusations if both accounts had logged in at the same time or one after the other, which is not the case.
Plus, I've never complained about the fairness of the payout. But where is the fairness that if you win you don't get any money?
I am being accused of fraud and it is not.
Is there a way to compromise for both sides?
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Tim
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2 years ago
Hi all, thank you for your replies.
Dear Andrei,
We believe that these kinds of cases should be judged individually. Let me ask you a question, are all three accounts verified?
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2 years ago
Hello!
Unfortunately, there is nothing to consider.
We cannot open accounts because of a gross violation of the rules.
We have the fact that all the accounts were used by the same person. We cannot set any precedent in such cases.
All the accounts are verified, but we are well aware of cases of fraud where people provided absolutely any documents.
We take this kind of abuse very seriously.
As I wrote earlier - I advise the client to be more careful in the future. There is nothing we can do.
Regards
Andrei
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2 years ago
Translation
Hi there,
I quote, "We have the fact that all accounts were used by the same person."
That is not correct, there are 3 people. 2 live in the same household.
Person 1: I.
Person 2: my friend.
Person 3: my friend's mother.
Now briefly explained again clearly. Person 2 & 3 live in a household but use different devices. Possibly in the same WLAN. However, both have the same password. For the reason that both have been using the same password for years. And as described above, both have been inactive for quite some time (months).
Person 1 is friends with person 2 and has used their cell phone. And logged into his own account.
There are 3 accounts of 3 people.
It was only accessed on my account and only by me! The exact login details are not known to anyone.
The letter from the Secure Team shows that if I hadn't changed my password, no error would have been reported to the system and the payout should have been made.
Unfortunately, that cannot be and I find that unacceptable.
In the future I will make sure that there are no more mistakes of this type. Unfortunately I can't turn back the past, the queue to stand for it is very long.
Yes, it was unwise to log into your cell phone and change my password. But it wasn't cheated. Everyone makes a mistake, so you shouldn't punish everyone right away.
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Tim
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2 years ago
Hi Andrei,
We completely understand the logic behind your decision. However, since all three accounts were successfully verified and practically no rules were broken and the player didn't gain an unfair advantage, we are convinced that Tim should get paid his winnings. It's perfectly fine if you want to block all the accounts from future play, but the winnings should be paid.
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2 years ago
Dear representatives of the casino guru.
The rules of the casino were violated, all accounts also used bonuses. The player was left in the profit, relative to his deposits and payouts.
For violation of the rules - all accounts are blocked. Unfortunately, we do not take players at their word for a long time. We have facts of violations, and these are gross violations, no withdrawals can be talked about.
Accounts are closed, winnings are confiscated. We will not set a precedent-based only on the word of the client. It does not matter at all whether the accounts are verified or not.
I can create an account in my mom's name and ask her to verify it, but I will play from two accounts myself.
In our opinion, this is what happened, one IP, one password.
The decision is final and not subject to appeal.
Follow the rules of the casino, everything is clearly spelled out there.
Best Regards
Andrei
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2 years ago
Translation
Hello and happy new year,
I have no reference to the two people, just logged in to his cell phone and used the same password as my friend, which was reset on my device! Neither person is active on Tsars!
Regarding your statement: "I can create an account on my mother's behalf and ask her to verify it, but I will be playing from two accounts myself.
In our opinion, that's what happened, an IP, a password. "
However, this situation does not apply to me and is none of my business. But only the two and this is not the case here either. You limit yourself to guesswork and thereby form an opinion.
Furthermore, it is about the balance of 8500 € with which neither a bonus was used with or through! This statement is also completely wrong. Maybe I used a bonus 12 weeks ago, but it doesn't matter.
As I said, the rule was not knowingly broken and there is no fraud.
I'm sure there have been similar cases with precedent.
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Tim
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2 years ago
Hi all, thank you for your replies.
Dear Andrei,
Let me ask you some questions. I can imagine that the player would gain an unfair advantage if all three of them took the welcome bonus and Tim made his winnings from this bonus, is this the case? Secondly, was there any gameplay in Tim's account after the password was changed?
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2 years ago
Hello, everyone.
Firstly:
Peter - to respond to your last two questions:
1) Tim didn't win his balance from Welcome bonuses. But from our point of view, this is irrelevant.
2) We can't claim with certainty that the customer did or didn't play after the password change. We would need to request a detailed analysis from the tech department, which could take some time. Even if we grant that he didn't play after the password change - why this nuance should impact the most basic violation: having three accounts with the same password/IP/device is not allowed and won't be tolerated.
Secondly:
I will try to make a complete summary of this matter and what implications are set upon us for future cases with similar Terms and Conditions violations.
I want to start by pointing out statistics that Tim had with us before "his friend changed the password", as is claimed by Tim himself.
Deposits: 2156.00 EUR (15)
Withdrawals: 8000.00 EUR (4)
Customers' net gain from Tsars is 5844.00 EUR and this even doesn't include refunds for the last two deposits, which were made as a loyalty gesture.
One was for 451.00 EUR and the second for 201.00 EUR.
Unfortunately, the 'fairness argument' won't apply quite so strongly if we are analyzing customers whole history on Tsars.
Facts are as follow:
We have three accounts in our system with the same password, IP, device - Elke, Patrick, and Tim.
There is no rational explanation in our mind, that could explain these duplicate matches. From our standpoint there even shouldn't be any rationalization/discussion.
Tim can try to justify it as colorfully as he wishes, but these types of decisions are not made on a "customers explanation" basis.
If this sort of decision-making would be implemented in future cases, then every duplicate match case needs to be dismissed.
Customers will come up with any fiction just to get the money back.
Furthermore - I want to zoom in and analyze Elke and Patrick more specifically.
- They are mother and son who have the same password.
This fact by itself is very suspicious and fraudulent. Why would mother and son have the same password?
In our long experience with cases, where children play with their parents + have the same password, more often than not
son or daughter takes parents card/ID and creates an account in their name. This of course is speculative analysis, but it could easily be true. And we are more than confident in claiming that most likely this is the case.
And then we have Tim - who has also the same password. By any online gambling community standards - this type of behavior is not acceptable.
I want to emphasize that if three customers have the same password; all of them have access to each other's accounts and at no point, we can clearly deduct who is playing from which account and when.
Furthermore - we can't also deduct who is the owner of the money, even if the depositing method belongs to the corresponding account. Nowadays when online payments are easy and quick, money could be swapped back and forth between bank accounts without any problems.
To conclude:
Duplicate match by IP, Password and Device is a serious violation of our Terms and Conditions. We are not willing to make an exception, just because Tim (or a related person to Tim) found a decent enough rationalization. We can't just throw away hard facts and believe customers' words. For all we know, this could be one person that is using three accounts with our without the other person's approval. Our bonus/loyalty/cash-back system is very comprehensive and detailed, and it can be abused, exploited very easily if one person has access to three different accounts.
We completely understand your case-by-case individual thinking model, but this, in our opinion, doesn't apply in such straightforward cases.
I hope that my explanation helps to understand why we made the decision we did.
Best regards,
Andrei
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2 years ago
Translation
Hello Andrei,
First of all, I have to say I am very disappointed, especially since my net profit is always mentioned. But the fact that I have paid in over €25,000 at a wide variety of casino providers over the past 3 years and have not won anything needs to be said.
The amount was won because there is nothing to shake. It doesn't matter on which device I played and where not. Yes, I changed my password afterwards and used the same one as my friend. I'm sure I've also played a game or two, or tell me who is paying out a number such as €3,468.51.
A success if the terms and conditions are formulated more precisely. There is nothing to read that I am not allowed to use the same password as an acquaintance, only that I have to keep it secret and that is a fact. No one has to tell me exactly what to write down in my password.
Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, that's also the reason why I deposited over €8,000 in another casino in December until last week. And don't have a good balance. I was even written to by support, who credited me with €200 due to the high level of activity.
After consulting Patrick, we are of the same opinion as probably many others:
why is it reprehensible to have the same password as your mother or parents?
If you have a very strong and good bond, live in the same household and one of them may be ill or slightly forgetful, isn't it an advantage?
Personally, I have to say that even if my bond with my parents is not that strong, I still have a similar password.
We are adults who have been working shifts in an oil factory for years and are getting a handsome salary, why should we or he need to put money into Mom's credit card?
Bonus was not used here, as it is known that it is not recommended to play or buy games with feature buy with bonus money.
To the next point. You just meant "nowadays when online payments are quick and easy, money can easily be swapped back and forth between bank accounts"
Are you kidding me here? With such wishy-washy statements? So the same goes for the other thousands of players on Tsars too! Anyone can deposit and withdraw money. Only I need a TAN for every transaction, whether with a current account, via a separate app with a password or via the Mastercard via a TAN procedure via SMS.
So it is impossible for another person to make a deposit on my behalf!
You have your opinion, we have ours, in the end you have the upper hand. That's why I ended up here and shared my impressions with an intermediary like Casino Guru. Since I have no happy or nice game results here with you because of exactly these statements.
Since I won this amount, I've already told my friends, booked a holiday, got into debt and got into so many arguments with close people, because the situation really bothered me! Sleepless nights, high blood pressure and headaches. Of course, I'm now being accused of having everything made up or conjured up out of a hat, but you're welcome to tell my partner that I almost lost it because of it.
And that's exactly why I changed the password. I wanted to stop playing. Finding an end again with a win. Thanks to you I can't.
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Tim
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2 years ago
Translation
Hello Andrei,
First of all, I have to say I am very disappointed, especially since my net profit is always mentioned. But the fact that I have paid in over €25,000 at a wide variety of casino providers over the past 3 years and have not won anything needs to be said.
The amount was won because there is nothing to shake. It doesn't matter which device I played on or which password I made afterwards. Yes, I changed my password afterwards and used the same one as my friend. I'm sure I've also played a game or two, or tell me who is paying out a number such as €3,468.51.
A success if the terms and conditions are formulated more precisely. There is nothing to read that I am not allowed to use the same password as an acquaintance, only that I have to keep it secret and that is a fact. No one has to tell me exactly what to write down in my password.
Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, that's also the reason why I deposited over €8,000 in another casino in December until last week. And don't have a good balance. I was even written to by support, who credited me with €200 due to the high level of activity.
After consulting Patrick, we are of the same opinion as probably many others:
why is it reprehensible to have the same password as your mother or parents?
If you have a very strong and good bond, live in the same household and one of them may be ill or slightly forgetful, isn't it an advantage?
Personally, I have to say that even if my bond with my parents is not that strong, I still have a similar password.
We are adults who have been working shifts in an oil factory for years and are earning a handsome salary, why should we or he need to put money into Mom's credit card?
Bonus was not used here, as it is known that it is not recommended to play or buy games with feature buy with bonus money.
To the next point. You just meant "nowadays when online payments are quick and easy, money can easily be swapped back and forth between bank accounts"
Are you kidding me here? With such wishy-washy statements? So the same goes for the other thousands of players on Tsars too! Anyone can deposit and withdraw money. Only I need a TAN for every transaction, whether with a current account, via a separate app with a password or via the Mastercard via a TAN procedure via SMS.
So it is impossible for another person to make a deposit on my behalf!
You have your opinion, we have ours, in the end you have the upper hand. That's why I ended up here and shared my impressions with an intermediary like Casino Guru. Since I have no happy or nice game results here with you because of exactly these statements.
Since I won this amount, I've already told my friends, booked a vacation, got into debt and got into so many arguments with close people, because the situation really bothered me! Sleepless nights, high blood pressure and headaches. Of course, I'm now being accused of having everything made up or conjured up out of a hat, but you're welcome to tell my partner that I almost lost it because of it.
And that's exactly why I changed the password. I wanted to stop playing. Finding an end again with a win. Thanks to you I can't.
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Tim
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2 years ago
Hi all,
Thank you for your replies.
Dear Andrei,
I completely understand your point of view. However, I still don't see what unfair advantage the player gained. There was no bonus abuse since he didn't win from a welcome offer. If he made all the winnings before the change of password and there was no gaming activity after this, it would confirm his story as strange as it may sound. There is practically nothing that he would gain from the situation, there was only the possibility of losing his money, so why risk that?
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2 years ago
Hello
Dear Peter,
Do you think the problem started when the customer changed his password? We have the fact that one person owns more than one account and these accounts have used bonuses at one time or another.
We could have discovered this earlier or later-it doesn't make any difference. The "unfair advantage gain" argument in our opinion is also irrelevant. The case is simple: if a customer has access/owns three accounts - they all will be blocked and winnings cut. This is clearly described in great detail in our Terms and Conditions, and we won't change our general duplicate account handling process, just because now the customer is playing on emotions and found a way to rationalize the case.
All such cases will be resolved in the same way, and there is nothing to discuss. The customer broke a lot of rules, and breaking such rules is an attempt to cheat the casino.
You believe the words, we believe the facts, and we act accordingly. All we can advise is not to make such mistakes in the future.
You may not agree with the rules, but there's nothing we can do about it and we can't make individual exceptions. The case has been closed on our side.
Andrei
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2 years ago
Dear Andrei,
After another discussion with our management, we came to the following conclusion: Based on the information and evidence we can't really prove if Timbrece's version of the story is true. If it was an honest mistake, it was definitely the worst idea ever to risk such an amount of winnings by giving access to the account to someone else, especially a person who had an account in the same casino as well as their mother. To be honest, the evidence (same IP, device, password, bonuses taken) would be a good enough reason to block the accounts in most if not all casinos across the industry. However, we in casino.guru, try to look at the fairness of the situation and the fact if players gain an unfair advantage over the casino and this is not really the case. Secondly, we believe that the casino should do better in providing additional evidence to support its accusations, e.g. it is very simple to find out if there was a game activity after the password change. The complaint will be closed as unresolved. However, the classification of the case will not hurt the casino's reputation much.
Dear Timbrece,
I'm afraid we can't persuade the casino to pay you. I recommend turning to the Curacao Gaming Authority and submitting a complaint to them (certria@gaminglicences.com). However, given the circumstances, I'm not sure if they will be able to help you either. I wish I could be of more help.
Best regards,
Peter
