TrueFlip Casino - Player’s winnings have been cancelled.

Guten Tag, 

Ich bin Französe und arbeite, wohne und zahle meine steuern hier in Deutschland seit drei Jahre.

Ich habe schon mit Casimba, frankcasino verloren und gewonnen. Niemals ein Problem. 

Aber mit Trueflip, ich habe 2 mal 40 € bezahlen. Ich habe nur online blackjack (evo) gespielt und ungefähr 1120 € gewonnen. Danach habe ich gefragt, sein zu bezahlen. 

Sie haben mir geantwortet dass ich Französe bin und ich kein recht hier habe zu spielen. Aber das ist falsch. Als deutsch bewohner darf ich da spielen. Das wäre natürlich ein Diskrimination. Was kann ich denn machen? Können Sie mir helfen?

Danke an alle, 

Boris

Dear Boris,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your negative experience. Please allow me to ask you a few questions, so I can understand the whole situation completely. Do I understand it correctly that your permanent residency is Germany, but your nationality is French? I have checked general terms and conditions, and this is what I found https://trueflip.com/terms-of-use:

"You are aware that the right to access and use the Website and any products there offered, may be considered illegal in certain countries. True Flip is not able to verify the legality of service in each and every jurisdiction, consequently, You are responsible for determining whether Your accessing and using Our Website is compliant with the applicable laws in Your country and You warrant to Us that gambling is not illegal in the territory where You reside or citizen of which you are. You should not use the services of True Flip if You are a resident in one of the following countries and/or territories: the USA, Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Marshall Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, and United States Minor Outlying Islands, Afghanistan, Algeria, Australia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belgium, Bhutan, Bonaire, Bulgaria, Brunei, Cambodia, Cayman Islands, Central African Republic, China, Cuba, Curacao, France, French Guiana, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Futuna Islands, Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Iran, Israel, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Macau, Malaysia, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Romania, Russia, Reunion, Saba, St Eustatius, St Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Saint-Barthelemy and Wallis, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Slovakia, Spain, Sudan, , Syria, Taiwan, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, UAE, UK ("prohibited countries")."

Could you please confirm that you have created an account as a resident of Germany, provided proof of your German address and you haven’t used a VPN (Virtual Private Network) to alter your location when opening the account? Your confirmation is essential for this case and I’m not asking this to get you in trouble, I’m just trying to understand how the casino handles its own rules.

If there’s any relevant communication, please forward it to petronela.k@casino.guru. I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Petronela

Dear Petronela,

You understood everything correctly.

I am working (in a university in Germany) and living officially in Germany since three years (only in Germany). I gave them a tax bill from the German state to prove my residence. I also have a bank account here, a job and therefore a job contract and salary slip if necessary. The document to prove my identity is my passport (french) that was given in a consulate in Germany with my current address here in Germany.

I did not use any VPN and I am allowed to play here since I have to respect the law of the country I am living. There is by the way no restrictions from the French government of doing that if you are not a french resident and you are not doing it in France.

The casino claims that I am French and therefore they refuse to give me the wins and close my account. However, I honnestly think I have full right to play there. It would be like claiming that no people under 1,60 are allowed to play. What I mean if I am correct is that a licence casino has no rights to be above the German laws and consider me as a second-class resident.

Thank you,

Boris

Hello again,

So I continue talking with the support agents at the moment.

I checked carefully the rule that you mention, i.e number 5 of "Your obligations" in their term. It is legal for me from a French or German law point of view with the condition sine qua non that I should officially live in Germany and I am.

They claim this condition especially: "and You warrant to Us that gambling is not illegal in the territory where You reside or citizen of which you are." So I am right (am I?) since 1: online casino gambling is illegal in french territory and I am living in Germany, and 2: illegal for french citizen ONLY if one is a french resident, which I am not therefore I only depend on german laws.

How can I go on now?

Kind regards,

Boris

Thank you very much, Boris, for providing all the necessary information in your reply and via email. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Jozef who will be at your assistance. I wish you best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.

Hello Boris.

I absolutely appreciate that you shared your experiences with the Casino Guru team. We will now try to get in touch with the casino.

Hello Josef,

Thank you for your help.

Latest news to stay updated.

It seemed that the casino understood my point of view. Now, they asked me some adminsitrative stuffs to complete my verification which is fine for me:

"a photo or a PDF copy of the residence permit of Germany and to confirm the address - the bank statement from the German bank with the full name and address on it."

I sent them a bank statement (Postbank) from this month as well as a registration certificate ("Meldebescheinigung") that I asked yesterday to the administration of the city where I lived. The latter one is well known, it is the registration of residency in Germany - this paper is the highest and more official one to prove your residency.

Their response from today is that I have in addition to send them: "German driver's license or residence permit".

I do not have the first one. Concerning the second ... ! Schengen zone! There is no residence permit of course. So I sent them the Meldebescheinigung. For exemple, you come from a non-european country then if you want to live in Germany, the kind of steps to follow is at least:

1. Ask for a visa

2. Ask a residence permit

3. Take an appartment

4. Register to the city to finally get your holy "Meldebescheinigung".

I am an european citizen from the Schengen zone, step 1 and 2 do not exist.

I am just a bit wondering why they are asking that since the country where the casino is registered (Malta) is also part of the Schengen zone and they are aware such a document does not exist in my case.

Thank you again.

Boris

Sorry for the number of posts. I like to make the case as clear as possible.

Last answer that makes no more sense at all anymore.

"The identity document should necessarily contain your photo. If you don't have any other identity document other than your French passport, I'm afraid we will have to refuse to accept you."

They accept that I am an official german resident and so have full right playing here even as French. This is not said obviously but is a consequence of what they asked me in order to finalize the registration.

So to finalize the registration, they want from me a proof of identity from the german administration with my photo such as a driving licence from the german authority. My nationality is not a problem anymore (that was of course logic) but they do not recognize my ID or passport since it was delivered from the french administration (the passport was given in the consulate in Germany). So from their side, I have to prove my identity but without my ID or my passport...

So it is sure they can not deny my passport. Even the Malta authority can not unaccept it. It is a requirement to be part of the Schengen zone and the EU (both that concerned Malta).

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/document-security_en

"Passports, residence permits or visas are used for travel purposes or as a proof of identity."

Hello again,

Last response from the casino.

"... I've just clarified with our legal team. We are talking about the local gambling laws here. If you didn't receive a residence permit, the gambling laws of Germany are not applicable to you as you are staying there as a French citizen. So you are obligated to follow the gambling laws of France which say that you are not allowed to play at casinos. If you provide a residence permit from Germany, we will be able to complete the verification."

That's of course not true. They are supposing an extraterritoriality of the French law in Germany...piouuu, incredible. I told them than resident permit can be given to people ONLY that are not normally allowed to stay in Germany which is not my case.

Furthermore, I gave them document I am living here since at least three years. They have now more documents and details from me than the german administration.

And I told them a lot of times that "you are obligated to follow the gambling laws of France" is not true. French gambling laws does not apply to french people but to french residency people. That has nothing to do with nationality.

I can and try to believe they are honnest but that's too basic to not be known by their legal team.

Kind regards,

Boris

TrueFlip casino did not answer here. However, their final answer for the case is the following:

"Hello Boris.

After trying to push your case through, it got rejected. The team insists on getting a normal residence permit that could be used as an identity document instead of your French passport, unfortunately. The response was received after they checked the needed information again. So I'm afraid, I cannot do anything more for you at this point, Boris. I wish I could though.

Please let me know if you have any further questions."

So, to resume, the last and only problem is my proof of identity. They refused my ID or passport because it has been delivered by French authorities. They are asking me to give them a german residence permit but this document does not exist in Germany for european citizens.

Now, I would like your help. What can we do next? Since this casino is under the MGA, it is obvious that they are breaking the law by doing that. French passport or ID are recognized in the whole european union and no company, administration or authority can refuse it as a proof of identity.

Kind regards

Hello Boris.

Thank you for all the information and updates. TrueFlip Casino team usually responds, so I am going to give it one more try. If they fail to respond I will be forced to close the case as unresolved which is going to affect their reputation on our site, and then I will contact you directly on your email address with further possible solutions how you can get help in your situation.

We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’.

Hi Jozef,

thank you for your response and your help.

I contacted the french consulate in Malta that confim me that my ID and passport are official documents recognized in Malta.

Actually they are the only two official documents in my possession that prove my identity.

Then we will wait another week

The european law about it. This is the " DIRECTIVE 2006/123/CE " (article 20/2) . 

As it was pointed out in the mentionned directive above and also in the question to the european parliament here (where the question is pretty clear): https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2014-004933_EN.html

with the response here:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2014-004933-ASW_EN.html?redirect 

In this case, an english company (was still in european union) refused a german ID as a proof of identity and it was considered as a discrimination. 

Hello Boris.

The identity verification procedure requires a certain set of documents to be provided in order to complete it. It is clearly stated in the Terms and Conditions that we don't accept citizens of France. We define residence and citizenship status according to the set of documents uploaded during the verification procedure. In cases when a customer has a reside­nce­/ci­tiz­enship status in more than 1 country (by holding a passport/ID/driver's license of one country and a residence permit/driver's license/passport/ID of another country), we give priority to non-restricted countries. In your case, in order to confirm your full residence status in Germany, we have to get a certain set of documents from you to complete the verification which should be a German identity document (passp­ort­/ID­/re­sidence permit/driver's license) + bank statement (already received from you).

The biggest problem is the passport from France which is a restricted country. We don't accept any documents from restricted countries as they are restricted by default. We understand that you are staying in Germany under certain circumstances, but if you cannot provide a German identity document that should necessarily contain your photo and date of birth, we cannot complete the verification, unfortunately.

We hope for your understanding.

The aim of the article in your "terms of use" that you are mentionning is pretty clear. It is aimed that the person concerned have to verify if he is allowed to use your service. 

After verification, an official german resident as I am, has to follow the german gambling laws to allow me therefore to play online. This is perfectly know to MGA licenced casino such as Frankcasino or Casimba since I played there.

This follows the law of european union, MGA terms as well as Maltese, Geman and french laws. The only condition concerning the french law would be that the users is not a resident of France. 

I perfectly understand that you are cautionnous with documents coming from France since this country is a restricted country for people wanting to play from there. However, as you are a company located in european union, you can not decide which documents you are accepting or not as a proof of identity. This is ruled by the european law and especially the " DIRECTIVE 2006/123/CE " (article 20/2). Not following this article makes your terms illegal in the european juridiction. As I already mentionned, a precision of the law by the european commission was made here:

The question to the european parliament here (where the question is pretty clear): https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2014-004933_EN.html

with the clear response here:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2014-004933-ASW_EN.html?redirect 

In this case, an english company (was still in european union) refused a german ID as a proof of identity and it was considered as a discrimination.  

Therefore, no company or administration in Europa can refuse an official ID or passport as a proof of identity without being guilty of discrimination.

Finally, you precise that: "In your case, in order to confirm your full residence status in Germany, we have to get a certain set of documents from you to complete the verification which should be a German identity document (passp­ort­/ID­/re­sidence permit/driver's license) + bank statement (already received from you)."

"Full residence status"! This is not true. I would like to remind you that an ID or a passport is not a proof of residency but only a proof of identity. I already gave you different proof of residency such as bank statement, salary slip and of course the "Meldescheinigung". Highest german documents to prove the residency. 

Please get in touched with other support agents under MGA casino like "Casimba" ones that have german or european competences which will confirm what I am writing.

I am not staying in Germany under "certain circumstances" as you said. I am an official german resident since more than three years and I am working and living here.

Kind regards, 

Boris

Dear TrueFlip Casino team,

Thank you very much for your cooperation. I have personally checked your T&C and registration form.

In your T&C, you are clearly stating:

"You should not use the services of True Flip if You are a resident in one of the following countries and/or territories: the USA...".

In your registration form, it even automatically prefill the country based on the residence (IP) of registering player. It is clear that Boris has not done anything wrong, since he is German resident, German laws should be applied on this situation. He even managed to prove his residency and identity, so there is no reason not to pay his winnings.

You have every right to reject player's of certain nationalities, but you should clearly mention it in your T&C, and in your registration form, there should be an extra field where players are able to fill only the nationality you accept. This would solve similar problems in the future, although it is not standard to focus on the nationality rather than residency.

Please, could you reevaluate the case or is this your final decision?

Dear Boris,

Thank you for using the Casino Guru complaint resolution center. We are glad to hear that your issue got resolved. We will now mark it as 'resolved' in our system. Please, do not hesitate to contact us in the future, if you run into any issues with this or any other casino. We are here to help, but I hope you won’t come across a problem like this again.

Best regards,Jozef

As the complaint has been successfully resolved, we will now close it as ‘resolved’ in our system. Thanks for cooperation and don’t hesitate to contact us if you run into any issues with this or any other casino in the future. We are here to help