Winshark Casino - general discussion (page 6)

And from the same forum thread they discuss that casinos that uses these copied slots got the ability to control the game and put players in "deadzone" mode. I have experienced this on Winshark and also on FatRabbit casino very recently. The cainos do pay out winnings but they are not 100% legit. Notice all the disconnects on PlayNGo, thats a sign.

Also lately I have seen casinos that doesnt even show the rtp% at all on PlayNGo. I thought this was a new thing from the provider but it might be that they use copied slots and can manipulate the text/graphics? Maybe even show a false rtp%?

I believe that "slot providers don't care" as you said, because:

1) Their products - the games are licensed under their own-game providers earned license that esure certificate confirming the RNG bases. It is quite oversimplified but still quite handy.

2) The licensing authorities issuing licenses to casinos only check whether the games are certificated upon the casino license issuing process. The rest is out of their reach.

3) To avoid local gambling restrictions, some game providers change the game's appearance, features, or look to make the same product more popular for certain markets/regions. Or they mask where the game is loading from...

No wonder many players consider these tactics to be a sigh of fake/manipulated games. But I also understand game providers would not want to openly discuss avoiding restrictions or altering graphics for most successful games. Still, I would love to have at least one official game provide representative to answer your very good questions.

I think you refer to the preset RTP values, which scale, and the casino may choose the concrete RTP value when procuring the game from the game provider. This is quite a common practice and the reason why we always say the player should be able to see the current RTP value available to him for each game.

Please do not mistake this for the most widely held player belief, which is that the casino somehow changed RTP specifically to lower players' chances of winning. As long as each game has an RTP below 100% and players continue to play in hopes of winning, this is totally beyond the realm of rational discussion. The mathematical advantage is always on the casino side, so they actually just need you to stay; you will lose eventually. Furthermore, despite being the least favorable of all casino games, the majority of players continue to play slots.

Under such circumstances, casinos only need players to participate, and players are more than willing to play the most disadvantageous type of games—the slots.

Have you ever thought about this before?

Of course, from time to time some scammy casinos simply chose the shortcut to profit and used some sort of fake games.

Actually, though, I would not waste time on phony games if I wanted to start defrauding players; instead, I would entice them with incredible bonuses and an unclear deposit requirement to authorize pending withdrawals. Once I had enough, I would simply close the site. Based on my personal experiences, I believe that this is an easier and, of course, the most unethical method of scamming casino players for money. No need to bother with "altered RTP"...

I would certainly ask the casino for an explanation regarding the missing RTP values. Though, as I said, there are far too many different explanations as the one you keep suggesting 🙂.

The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them. As it is today the slots are probably used by these "fake" casinos without knowledge from the slot providers. Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone.

Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo.

I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year.

The casino in most cases consists of a outsourced support that cant answer nothing about the rtp or the slots. Its all lined up perfectly. "Thats how they are delivered from the provider, the casino cant manipulate the games in any way."

Its a very big problem with fake casinos for the banks, at least here. My bank and Mastercard just limited the transfers to Revolut because of this. And they try to cut of any payments for non EU licensed casinos. For a couple years now I had to use Revolut to even deposit to these casinos.

And as I have looked up several of the people behind these casinos, many are well known to be linked to organized crime. Still they even had a MGA license in one case..Rade Kotur with son being one of them.

Hi, let's continue.

"The slots themselves are not licensed until a licensed casino uses them."

I have different information, but feel free to share some official source supporting yours. Perhaps there has been some new development in the field of licensing.

"Its just copied/mirrored slots. I dont know how it works but I think the reason that PlayNGo dont care is because they are doing billions and dont need to. They cant even be reached at their offices by phone."

My observations of the percentage of players who say the slots are manipulated, faked, or altered lead me to conclude that the game providers are simply understaffed to handle all of these issues. Consider the number of players who approach the game provider after losing money on their slots and insist that the games must have been rigged in some way. The distinction between the players' viewpoint and a legitimate worry backed up by comprehensive gaming history or video caps, for example, should be clear.

"Its not that they alter the graphics or to avoid restrictions. Many of these even have IP blocked providers. They use old versions of the slots as they dont pay for it to PlayNGo."

Despite the rules, some providers take specific actions to ensure that their products are available to everyone, as I mentioned.

"I agree there should be a way to communicate with the providers, but since I talked to one of the big shots at PlayNGo I can tell you that they dont care if they scam people, its a shady business and a grey zone industry. And they make extreme profit every year."

I would be interested in seeing the communication with this provider. If possible, could you take a screenshot of the official response you received? That would be awesome!

I dont have any screenshot. This was a phone call I made after some googling and found some phone numbers registered on PlayNGo or Tigrim 1 AB, the company behind PlayNGo. They are based on Storgatan 82a in Jönköping, Sweden.

I tried around 8 numbers and only one answer. I talked to him around 10 minutes, mostly about rtp% and how it can differ from casino to casino when its the same slot. I live in Sweden and they are based here so maybe easier for me to find this than for others.

So no official response, they work in silence. Their head office is also low key. This was probably 2 years ago.

Oh, I see now.

If I may guess these contacts led to the central desk, assistants, marketing, or PR department, am I close?

I mean, as far as I can say, getting in touch with someone involved enough to be able to address concrete questions is a standalone quest. Thank you very much for helping me to get to the bottom of your direct experience.

The way I see it, the result remains the same though. Until we get someone who would be able to explain the most usual market practices and the game licensing process at least. 🙁

Not to mention whether the games are periodically reviewed by any authority to ensure their authenticity.

No this was a guy with a official role at Playngo. Not some office staff or central desk. No offical phone number and he was irritated that I managed to get a hold of him, he asked me more than one time who I was and why I called. I told him I was from the media and that we wanted a interview. He refused that and I told him we will come knock on their office doors to do a story. That was it.

I dont think the slots are reviewed periodically, they trust the RNG that is approved and legal.

I remember about 10 years ago I didnt know that the rtp% could differ on the same slot. I lost 400 euro on slots that I after found out they had a rtp% of 88%. I thought the rtp was 96%. For a player of a slot 88% vs 96% is a extreme difference in how the slot behaves. I can say it was mostly dead spins all 400 euro. Still this is fully legal to do on all gambling licenses.

Imagine a legit casino that doesnt lower rtp and pay out instantly. I dont think it exists at all today. Sad because it should be the absolut minimum for a casino to have that before they go online with their product. Anything else is a scam against the player.

Really, you did get to this guy?

Well, wow!

Despite that, I still think the current situation with "legitimate" slots and altered RTP is more complicated, and because of that, I'm a bit hesitant to agree with the last paragraph

I'd really love to say you are a unique source of interesting points in this very unclear field of expertise.

On the other hand, I too tend to think that games are not generally reviewed and the system works on the main principle that the RNG is fair enough, so once the product is licensed, it is all good enough.

Different RTP for the same slot offered in different casinos is one of the signs I'm also very sensitive to. If nothing else, such practices, at least in my opinion, lower the general trust in this industry.

I would love to believe that 88% RTP is only a bad guess, because such a low value is pretty close to deceiving, I'd say.

Our team has a debate about what the situation is when it comes to casino games and their uthenticity, licensing, control, and so on. The outcome was that we would all truly need someone from inside to help us understand the basics so we can, for instance, let go of our own assumptions...

Well, not an easy topic indeed.

Yeah I would say that 88% rtp is close to fraud. This is mainly the providers "fault". They could lock the rtp, I think some providers do? Pragmatic Play usually have a normal rtp% at these scam casinos, but PlayNGo is always lowered. Even 91% rtp some players call "great rtp" here on the forum.

Would be cool if you guys tried to contact these providers? Maybe they are more willing to talk if its not a player who has lost money.

And I agree what you wrote earlier, most critique comes from players who have lost money and are upset, that makes it hard to adress serious critique to these slot providers.

Well, it could be.

The RTP is still just one piece of puzzle for me, but one thing is certain - decent casinos state some form of RTP visibly, so the player is not mistaken when assumming the same game has the same RTP in all casinos.

I also firmly believe casinos do not have to spy on each player to reduce "his personal RTP settings," which is sadly another common opinion. Just imagine if they truly do offer games with RTP lower than, let's say, 96% the odds are so favorable for the casino that no other "tempering" is necessary.

I was quite annoying to my Data Team colleagues when I first started learning more about the workings of the industry. I was not just asking them about practically everything; I also tried to ask more questions when I encountered a topic for which I could not find satisfactory answers. Asking game providers back then would not have gotten us very far, I suppose you can imagine. 🙂

I dont know how much experience you guys have of actually playing on the slots for real money?

I am 100% sure that manipulation of the players game does happen, at least on those type of casinos we previously discussed. This is quite obvious for a experienced player.

And im also sure of the personal rtp%, thats what makes the whole thing secure even for a legit casino. If you have won alot on a casino, you will lose about the same ammount you won before it will pay you again.

For 3 years I counted my deposits and withdrawals at a casino and we can see that very often we just win what we lost earlier, or lose what we previously have won. Thats how its designed.

Our team is very experienced, and we also have an external team of testers as an addition.

What is missing is the way the games are supervised in terms of legitimacy. At least for me.

I think players do not have to worry about much in good casios. Since the slots are most beneficial for casinos, it is quite predictable that the longer players play, all will be lost eventually. Additionally, I firmly believe that the only way to win in the end is to quit playing as soon as your numbers turn green again. Otherwise, especially with slots, you'll be in red in no time. So yes, if you continue to play, this is how it works as long as the RTP is always below 100%.

Thus, I would say casinos such as Winshark do need to somehow regulate gameplay.

I agree, thats how the slot is designed. My guess is that if we win big, the personal rtp drops, and the more we play and lose it increases.

Yeah the best is to cash out and wait until playing again. 2024 has probably been my best year ever on the slots and I have tried to wait a week after a good win before I play again. And I cashed out pretty good on Winshark but as I wrote all the slots got completly dead after those wins. If a bonus was hit it paid like 5x. As also mentioned from another player in this thread.

I'm sorry I can't help you further with your opinion or suspicions. You were able to win something nice, at least. To be honest, the rest is probably up for debate in another format. I mean, its great to get in touch with someone with your experiences with the game provider, but I feel I have little else to add.

As I mentioned earlier, we are missing industry professionals who are more outspoken or who are willing to occasionally visit the forum and participate in similar conversations.

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