The player from Finland, after having wagered a large amount on the game 'Reactoonz', questioned the game's performance and return to player (RTP) percentage. The player's personal calculations had indicated the RTP was just above 70%, as opposed to the stated 96%; however, the casino insisted the game had been functioning properly. The player had provided evidence suggesting the RTP was set to a maximum of 91%, which the casino initially denied. After several exchanges, the casino confirmed that the game had been operating with an RTP of 91.2%. The player had requested compensation for the casino's initial misleading information about the RTP. The casino representative had provided evidence indicating that the incorrect RTP value was sent to the player only once, via email, after his account had been closed. The player had threatened legal action due to the casino's lack of response to his emails. The casino had sent the requested information to the player via email. The issue remained unresolved.
ExciteWin Casino - Player is questioning game's RTP.
Amount: €16,000
ExciteWin Casino
Safety Index:HighPlayer stopped responding
REJECTED
Case summary
Hello.
I have been playing on the excitewin.com website for nearly a year. I have wagered around 500,000€ this year. I noticed that the Play'n Go game 'Reactoonz' was not performing as expected, and I asked about this issue several times. I even closed my account because of this on multiple occasions. The chat and technical team claimed that the game was functioning properly and the return to player (RTP) was the original 96.xx%. After investigating, I found that the maximum RTP for Reactoonz on the Excitewin casino has been set at 91%, so I requested my wagering log for this game. It turned out that I had wagered approximately 54,000 rounds (equivalent to about 146,000€) with an average wager of around 2.6€, and the return was just over 100,000€. Thus, the return percentage remained just slightly over 70%. Is this normal with this number of rounds? I have demanded an explanation for this, but they tell me everything is ok.. In my opinion, this seems like fraud..?
Dear mal3c,
Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem. However, I want to inform you that we cannot make a case solely based on what you are describing. Sometimes you might get lucky and sometimes not; that's how casinos and casino games work. I would recommend reading our article about Payout ratio (RTP): https://casino.guru/learn-about-games-of-chance-rtp-variance.
If you have more information that would help our case, please forward it to me. Unfortunately, at this time, if we don’t have any evidence proving that something unfair is going on, there is nothing we can do. Please do not hesitate to contact me at veronika.l@casino.guru if there is anything else I could do for you regarding your complaint.
Best regards,
Veronika
So is it legal for the casino to state that the original rtp is 96.xx%, even though it is actually set to max 91%? I think this is a clear fraud.?
Thank you, Tobiasslimy, for your reply. Return to player (RTP) ratio, also called payout ratio is a number that describes what percentage of each bet is statistically returned to a player from each bet (it is not saying what percentage of deposits the player will get back as some people may think). So if someone wagers 1000$ on a game with 90% RTP his expected return is 900. There are some facts about RTP that we would like to highlight.
First of all, this expected return is just a mathematical average. In short, anyone can get very lucky (or unlucky) and get a much bigger (or lesser) return than his expectation. However, if you play for a long time, your real return will be close to the expected return. In mathematics, this is called the law of big numbers. Many people wrongly believe that this means that if someone was very unlucky during some time period he should get very lucky over the next period. Or that if the red number won on roulette ten times in a row, there is a bigger chance that the black one will win next. This is called Gambler's fallacy and it's not true.
Past results do not influence future results. The law of big numbers is saying that if you get very unlucky in the past you can expect to get average results in the future (you would have the same expectation if you get good or average luck in the past - what happened in the past just doesn't matter in the present). And this average result will give you closer to the average result overall. For example, if red won on roulette 8 times of 10 in the first ten spins and then 5 times of 10 in the next ten spins, it's overall 13 times out of 20 which is much closer to theoretical expectation than 80% wins for red from first ten spins.
If you want to learn more about RTP we recommend you watch our videos about this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0rVhAZL1-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fzMDzadtA
Still, if you believe that you are entitled to any refund, please forward your entire game history in Excel format to veronika.l@casino.guru. You may request your entire gaming history directly from the casino. Thank you in advance.
I do understand how RTP works. But excitew's site states that the RTP is original 96.xx% in this particular reactoonz game. However, you can see from the program code that the RTP is customized and limited to a maximum of 91%. Is this legal?
Do you have any evidence of the RTP being customized and being limited to a maximum of 91%? If so, please send the screenshot here.
I have the pictures as evidence. Can I send them to someone as a private message?
Dear mal3c,
We are extending the timer by 7 days. Please, be aware that in case you fail to respond in the given time frame or don’t require any further assistance, we will reject the complaint.
Tämä teksti on lisenssin myöntäjän EMTA kotisivuilta.
§ 54. Requirements for gaming equipment used in the organization of remote gambling games
Gaming equipment used as remote gambling in the organization of gambling must ensure with sufficient certainty that:
1) the randomness of the explanation of the gambling result cannot be influenced by the gambling organizer or any other person;
Kasino kuitenkin on väittänyt jatkuvasti että pelin rtp on 96%
Thank you, mal3c, for the screenshot. Could you also please send me any evidence of the casino claiming that the RTP of this particular game is 96%?
I also have chat logs where they repeatedly claim that the rtp is 96.51% when I have asked them to check it.
Thank you very much, mal3c, for providing all the necessary information. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Matej (matej@casino.guru) who will be at your assistance. I wish you the best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.
Hello mal3c,
I am sorry to hear about your troubles.
I would like to invite the casino representative into the case:
Dear casino representative, could you please check the case and explain to us what happened?
Dear Customer,
Thank you for reaching out to us.
We would like to take a moment to give you some insight into the nature of Return to Player (RTP) and how it relates to your game.
We want to assure you that our casino does not influence or manipulate winnings. We offer licensed games from some of the best online gambling operators in the industry. You can easily find the names of these reputable providers on our website under "Casino".
When it comes to RTP, it is important to understand that it represents the average return over a longer period of play. Individual winnings may vary greatly from this average because our games are random. These games are operated by the game provider. Furthermore, the RTP that the VIP manager provided to you was a reference from the internet that shows the game provider advertised RTP for this game and we have no influence over it.
Here are some important points to keep in mind:
The games we offer are designed to be unpredictable. This means that every spin, every bet and every outcome is completely random. Each result is not affected by the previous result.
Due to randomness, it is important to note that individual winnings do not always correspond to the stated RTP. While some players experience a series of losses, others enjoy a series of wins.
It is important that you only bet as much as you can afford. We want you to have fun and enjoy our games, but we also want you to do so responsibly.
Please remember that there are no patterns or guarantees when it comes to random play. Just because you've lost a few times doesn't mean you'll have a winning streak anytime soon. Each game result is independent and is not influenced by previous results.
In summary, we want to offer you a fair and exciting gaming experience. The RTP is a valuable guide to understanding the potential winnings, but it is not a promise for every single bet. Embrace the unpredictability, enjoy the games, and most importantly, play responsibly.
We thank you for your understanding!
Please let us know if you have any questions or need further clarification on this topic.
Best regards,
Excitewin
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative,
It appears there may have been a misunderstanding regarding mal3cs's complaint. He is not alleging that the RTP is being manipulated, but rather that your casino claimed the game in question was running on a 96% RTP, while he discovered that the actual RTP of the game is set to 91%.
It is widely known that PlayNGo offers multiple settings for RTP. The game in question could be set to 96%, 94%, 91%, 87%, or 84%.
We do not see an issue with setting this game to 91%; it is within your rights to choose the setting that best fits your needs. However, our concern lies in the fact that you are advertising the games with the highest RTP setting while offering a lower setting.
Dear Matej,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. We welcome the opportunity to address your concerns regarding RTP percentages at our casino.
First of all, it is important to emphasize that our casino has no control or influence over the RTP of a game. The RTP is managed exclusively by the respective game providers.
Regarding your question regarding the email mentioning an RTP of 96%, it is important to know that this communication comes from the customer's VIP manager. He explained that the RTP values can vary between different game providers.
To further assist our customers, the VIP Manager advised the player to verify the RTP information by checking the game settings, consulting reliable online sources or contacting the game provider directly. This ensures that players have access to accurate and up-to-date RTP information, as this is subject to change due to decisions made by game providers, regardless of our casino's influence.
For the convenience of the customer, the VIP manager provided a number including the 96% RTP from one of the reliable source of the game reference from the Internet. However, it is important to note that this reference does not necessarily have to correspond to the actual RTP stated by the game provider. To get the most accurate RTP, customers should check the game settings or contact the game provider directly.
We hope this clarification clears up any confusion or concerns you may have had. We greatly appreciate your understanding on this matter. If you have any further questions or require additional information, please feel free to contact us.
We thank you again for your understanding.
Best regards,
Excitewin
I have repeatedly asked the RTP value of the game in question at YOUR casino, not any online reference, because I am aware of the original rtp value of the game. At no point have I been told that the RTP: values can vary at your casino. In the VIP manager and also in the chat conversations, I have never been asked to check the game settings, but you have repeatedly assured me that the RTP: is the original 96 and the game works normally according to it. I also tried to contact the provider of the game and there was a clear answer that they will not intervene, but that your casino will sort it out for you, and I also sent you an email about this.
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative,
PlayNGo provides various options for RTP, with the game in question being able to be set to 96%, 94%, 91%, 87%, or 84%. This is a verifiable fact. If you are unaware of this, please verify it through a search engine or by contacting PlayNGo.
The decision on how to configure this setting lies with the casino.
mal3c checked the RTP settings of the game in question and discovered that it is set to 91%. However, the support team provided him with information stating that the game is set to 96%.
Dear Matej,
We thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
After careful review by our casino team, we can confirm that the game operates with an RTP of 91.2%. We understand the concerns of the customer who received misleading information due to human error from one of our VIP managers who relied on an external online source and not official information from our brand. We request customers to accept our sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused by this miscommunication.
To ensure our customers receive the most accurate information about RTP, we recommend checking the game settings or contacting the game provider directly. In response to this situation, we have taken the necessary steps to confirm the situation and inform our internal teams on how to proactively verify the RTP with the relevant casino department. Our goal is to provide our customers with the most accurate data and stop relying on external sources.
We sincerely hope the customer can understand this confusion caused by this incident. We apologize again for the inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.
Best regards,
Excitewin
Every time I have asked you to check the functionality and rtp value of the game in question, of course I have assumed that you will do this "carefully" and tell me the correct value. I have bet more than €140,000 on that game at your casino with the wrong odds.. Your sincere apologies will not help much at this point..
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative,
We understand mal3c's concern, as he may have chosen to play at a different casino with a higher RTP of 96% if he had known that the RTP of this game is only 91.2%.
I will bring this issue up at our internal meeting on Wednesday as this is an unusual situation.
Dear mal3c,
Every game should display the accurate RTP information when you click on the game details. I want to confirm whether this information was incorrect, or if you were able to see the correct value there.
(the i sign from your picture)
You usually see the rtp announced in the game information "The average return percentage is xx.xx%. The RTP is achieved by participating." with the phrase , but on Excitew's website this announcement was not found in the info of that game. Because of this, I started questioning the rtp value of this game. In response, I repeatedly received that the rtp of the game is 96.51% and they apologized that it had been forgotten in the addendum to the game information.
Yeah. I checked that there is currently no mention of rtp value in the Reactoonz game info on Excitew's website.
The pictures are from the demo version, but my account is locked and I can't take real money pictures. But I assure you that the same information was in the real money info.
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative,
Could you please explain why the information about the game RTP is missing? Isn't it mandatory for the casino to display the game's RTP? I am certain that for some jurisdictions, casinos are required to show this information.
Hey. Did you discuss my matter in your internal meeting yesterday?
Dear Matej,
Thank you for your request.
We would like to inform you that we have contacted the relevant department regarding the information you requested. We are actively working to gather the necessary details and will update you as soon as we have the relevant information.
----------------
Dear Customer,
We recently sent you an email requesting some necessary information to assist with our investigation and look forward to your response.
Thank you for your understanding!
Best regards,
Excitewin
I have sent the information they requested.
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative and Mal3c,
We discussed the issue in our internal meeting. The main problem we see here is that Mal3c was repeatedly given incorrect RTP information about the game he wanted to play. We believe that the casino should compensate him for the error they made because, if we consider the situation mathematically with the correct RTP, his outcome could have been different. However, if he wins with the current RTP, then he would not complain, so we are looking for a compromise.
I will be satisfied if Excitewin compensates my losses even up to 91.2% of the amount I bet in that game.
Dear Matej,
We recently sent you an email with all the necessary information. We would be pleased to receive an answer from you.
Thank you for your understanding!
Best regards,
Excitewin
I've been trying to figure this out for several months now, and I haven't received any concrete answer/solution to this issue. Excitewin does not respond to my emails when I ask about their final position/decision on the matter.
I am now asking for an answer from Excitew casino through this as well.
Is Excitewin ready to make amends for its "mistake" or not?
I have been in contact with other parties as well and they encourage me to take the matter forward if a solution cannot be reached between me and Excitewin Casino.
Dear ExciteWin Casino representative and Mal3c,
The casino representative has provided evidence indicating that the incorrect RTP value was sent to Mal3c only once, via email, after his account was closed.
Mal3c has repeatedly complained about not winning, stating that his theoretical RTP is around 70% , and that he received numerous bonuses when attempting to close the account.
This sheds new light on the complaint. Dear Mal3c, could you please confirm whether you received the incorrect RTP value only once in an email after your account was already closed?
Could they give me this evidence too? I have requested the chat logs several times without success. I don't have all the emails saved so I can't see how many times they have announced rtp via email but via chat several times.
I have questioned the functionality of this game several times in the chat as well as via support e-mail and the answer was always the same that "we cannot influence the game's rtp value and it is the original 96%! After clarifying the matter due to the big losses, I noticed that the game's rtp value was indeed 91% . After that, I contacted the chat, which no longer commented on the matter and asked to be contacted through Support. Despite several emails, I did not get a response to the matter. This last email sent by the vip manager was indeed sent a couple of days after I had closed the account again. The vip manager was the only one who answered my message and I asked to close my account. I also asked him to clarify the situation for me because I didn't get any kind of answer from anywhere else and then he also sent me this same wrong rtp value..
Dear mal3c,
Based on the evidence provided by the casino, it is clear that you have contacted the support team multiple times to voice your concerns about the game and its payouts. On several occasions, the casino support informed you that they have no control over the RTP and even offered you a bonus. It's crucial to note that at no point did they misinform you about the RTP being 96%.
If you have any evidence of the casino support or VIP manager explicitly stating that the RTP is 96%, please share it with us (excluding the email from the VIP manager when your account was already closed).
Thank you.
Unfortunately, I don't have any older emails saved, and I haven't taken screenshots of the chat conversations. As I have already said before, I have requested chat and e-mail logs many times without success.
And to be exact, I closed my account the day after I got this last wrong rtp value from the VIP manager, because by then I had already found out that the game's rtp was 91%
Dear Casino representative,
Could you kindly send the gathered information and chat transcript to mal3c?
As previously mentioned, we have thoroughly reviewed all the evidence provided by the casino. Upon review, it was noted that on multiple occasions, you engaged with the live chat to explain that, based on your calculations, your Return to Player (RTP) was approximately 70%. In response, the support team informed you that they are unable to influence the RTP, as it is determined by the provider and the Random Number Generator (RNG).
Today it's been 10 days since Excitewin doesn't respond to my e-mail requests, so I contacted my lawyer handling the matter. We decided to start legal proceedings on January 2, 2024, when a complaint letter will be sent to EMTA and a demand letter to Excitew casino.
Dear Customer,
We recently sent you an email with the requested information.
Best regards,
Excitewin
Dear mal3c,
I trust that once you review the information provided by the casino, we can close this complaint.
Kindly confirm this, and thank you for your understanding.
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