Kysymys MGA: sta ja sosiaalisesta vastuusta

Hello. 

I would like to ask u. 1stly i want to say ive never been gambler since i had a depression due to family tragedy. I made account on Casino "nonamed". In 1st 5 days ive deposited over 13k dollars. I think its the 1st indication to make kyc procedure. Nothing happend. It ended up when i was on 40k deposits during 2 weeks without any interaction. Had cancelled withdrawals (another indicator) Then i got lucky and wanted to withdrawal atleast 17k dollars. During this VIP flag was added to my account WITHOUT ANY VERIFICATION. Then it happend, I was informed I need to do verify myself then I can withdrawal. I send all needed documents, this process needed a lot of tries, during this time I canceled withdrawals again but came back with another withdrawal. After staff asked me what is my opinion on the casino, ive told him my story and that i am gambling only because of depression. This nigh I cancelled again my withdrawals and lost all. Kindly asked if there is willing step to give me atleast money back I had after I told my story about my problem. They said no. Then i tried to put my case on pogg.com where they had long conversation with them and after 4 months of interaction with casino and MGA they decided that after one conversation I have right to have my money back, since I was showing high indicators of problem with gambling. Casino didnt follow they decision which by poggs words is lawly binding and I have to contact MGA. MGA has this on table for 3 months. 

This casino has UKGC and MGA, but since I am not from UK i had to chose MGA. By articles by UKGC a lot of casinos got so high penalties rightly for this and players had refunded. Do u think that MGA has the same look on that sotuation? 

No KYC, no AML, no warning or asking me if i am ok, nothing. It started when i wanted to withdrawal and my withdrawal was up for 12 hours. Previous ones where my withdrawals holds for few hours and then cancelled didnt require anything. 

I am just confused, because on docume ts of MGA states that ADR decisionn should be binding for both parties(operator and player) and operator would not refer player to take this to MGA. 

Thry declined to follow decision of thePogg as it states in their message, but after my case ive found cases where this operator was particulated with ThePogg. 

When the ADR result should be binding, can MGA decide tocdont follow their decision and dont give me my money back? 

Thanks and sorry for my english. 

I think this casino really hard breached their social responsibility.

Here is mesaage ThePogg posted on my complaint, even after that Blacklisted this Casino od their site. 

We have had a very long conversation with Casino *** regarding this issue.

Having reviewed this case in detail it is the opinion of this service that there was sufficient indications given in your interactions with this operator that the operator should have excluded you on Responsible Gambling grounds.

Before making a ruling we consulted with the Malta Gaming Authority regarding the basic grounds for the ruling and the regulator indicated that they grounds for the ruling sufficient to support the ruling based on what we had shown them.

Having informed Casino *** of this ruling they have explicitly stated that they will not comply with the ruling given and have insisted that the case be escalated to the MGA for review.

It is our understanding that the ADR system in place under the MGA license does not offer any facility for operators to demand such escalation of complaints to the regulator by either player or operator.

The grounds upon which the operator has refused to respect our ruling is the claim that as they have not yet got round to updating their terms and conditions document to include a complaint policy that is compliant with the MGA license they hold. As far as we can see this is unsupported by the ADR Service Agreement they have signed, which explicitly states that the "Effective Date" for the agreement was the 4th of September 2019 and makes no exclusion for the operator having to update their terms prior to coming into effect. As such we view this defence as illegitimate and - in line with our ADR Service Agreement with the operator - consider our ruling to be legally binding.

This case is found in favour of the Player and it is the opinion of this service that the Player is entitled to a refund of losses after the point where Casino ***'s agents should have acted to close their account.

Given that Casino *** have stated their intention not to comply with this ruling we would recommend that you contact the MGA regarding this issue. We will likewise be passing further information on to the regulator about this case.

Thanks,

ThePOGG

Hi Deorko.

In this case, there are several problems. (Coincidentally, we recently dealt with the blacklist that Pogg gave to this casino so we have a good overview)

Currently, "responsible gambling" is a big topic and different licensing authorities have different procedures.

For example, the UKGC and the Swedish Licensing Authority have very strict rules and in your case they would certainly decide in your favor. MGA does not have such strict rules and therefore we are not sure how to decide (but from what you say I believe they will agree with you) And then we have licensing authorities like Curacao, Costa Rica, Philippines where unless you explicitly write that you have problems with gambling, literally, you probably won't get justice. (There are also honorary Curacao casinos for sure.)

Back to your case:

The problem here is that the casino does not agree with how Pogg decided. (yes, the decision should have been binding and yes, the excuse that they have to adjust it on the site first is also very weak) in any case, we think that the casino or player, if he has doubts about the ADR decision, has the right to ask the licensing authority to review the case.

In your case, it would be good for you to contact the MGA and directly ask about your case and the fact why the decision takes so long. Especially when Pogg has already consulted the whole matter with MGA, because three months to decide is really very long for MGA.

Ahoj Deorko.

V tomto prípade sa jedná hneď o niekoľko problémov. (zhodou okolností sme nedávno riešili blacklist ktorí Pogg tomuto kasínu dal tak máme dobrý prehľad)

Momentálne "responsible gambling" je veľká téma a rôzne licenčné autority majú rozdielne postupy.

Napríklad UKGC a Švédska licenčná autorita majú veľmi prísne pravidlá a vo vašom prípade by určite rozhodli vo Váš prospech. MGA nemá až tak prísne pravidlá a preto si nie sme istý ako rozhodne (ale z toho čo uvádzate verím, že dajú za pravdu Vám) No a potom tu máme licenčné autority ako Curacao, Costa Rica, Filipíny kde pokiaľ vyslovene nenapíšete, že máte problémy s hazardom a to doslova, tak sa asi spravodlivosti nedočkáte. (Sú aj čestné Curacao kasína to určite.) 

Späť k Vášmu prípadu:

Tu je problém ten, že kasíno nesúhlasí s tým ako rozhodol Pogg. (áno rozhodnutie malo byť záväzné a áno tá výhovorka že to najprv musia upraviť na stránkach je tiež veľmi slabá) každopádne si ale myslíme , že kasíno alebo hráč, keď má pochybnosti o rozhodnutí ADR, má právo požiadať licenčný úrad o preskúmanie prípadu.

Vo Vašom prípade by bolo dobré aby ste kontaktovali MGA a priamo sa spýtali na Váš prípad a skutočnosť prečo rozhodovanie trvá tak dlho. Zvlášť keď Pogg už celú vec s MGA konzultoval, pretože tri mesiace na rozhodovanie je skutočne veľmi dlho pri MGA.

I was calling them 3 weeks ago.

In that moment they told me "last week we requested documents from operator".

When I called then 3 days ago, they said me, that complaint tram is busy and they will callcme this day, nothing happend so I called again this days and be promised they will contact me next days. And nothing, I am just confused how they sitting on my case like they really dont want tocrefund me trying to find ways with Casino how to do this.

I understand that it is hard to wait so long. But I am afraid that you need to wait a bit longer. If you already waited for three months, then a few days more doesn't make much difference. I hope that they will decide in your favour. Otherwise, I start to doubt about MGA ruling.

Its nore than 3 months. From October 2019 to February 2020 The Pogg. Since 20th February to.now MGA.

I am very sorry, but there is no other advice in this situation than to wait a bit more. This decision is the final one, so no more waiting, no other institution or licensing authority. After this decision, it should end. So stay strong and wait a little longer.

I am waiting... I am just scared, that they will decide to dont refund me.

A month ago, when I was calling them a get answer that last week they requested some documents from operator, and it would be solved in 1 week, after a month, during period 3 days all agents were busy or already ouf of office

Today I was calling MGA and they told me that their team is conpleting all documents and decision should be next week

I think its time to name that Casino. Its Casino Joy under Genesis Global Ltd.

Since I was looking, how MGA deals with refunding players, I fohnd this.

https://www.casinobeats.com/2020/07/20/gambling-commission-hands-interim-licence-suspension-to-genesis-global/

It kinda brings a shine in my case.

I think that before you start playing and betting you should contact them or find out so that it does not happen again

I am done by gambling honestly.

I said that 67times so far.

I am so flustrated...

Its already 2 weeks they got all documents from operator and still nothing, I was calling them and only thing they told me their team is working on it. When I asked atleast for some timescale, has been told, they cant give any timescale.

I wanted to tell them they are sitting on my case like a dog on his bone.

Congratulations! Mate

So ive recieved finally the decision and I am shocked.

1)never recieved email about verify my account

2)ive showed multiple sognals of problem gambling, like ammount of depositing, frequency, and played down cancelled withdrawals.

3) anyways is normal to let someone to deposit over 35k dollars without any verification?

4) they didnt absolutely put THEPOGGs decision supported by them in this case, which actually was my only case.

5)honestly, is email where ive told them "ive never been gambler, I started to play due to depression of my grandpa death, ive lost my financial plan to the future and I am glad to have atleast something back and its my worst month of the month" took like something to be stopped from gambling? I think so.

So, here it is.

Dear Mr. XxX,

Please accept our sincere apologies for the time it has taken us to revert with a reply concerning your complaint. Further to the below case, please be informed that we have received information from the representative of Genesis Global Limited who have informed the MGA that you have registered your account on 27/04/2019. You have deposited and started to play on 29/04/2019. When your deposit reached 34,250CZH (equivalent to EUR1258.58) they have requested your KYC documents.

As you did not upload your documents they have sent you several reminders on 01/05/2019, 03/05/2019, 05/05/2019 and 23/05/2019. You uploaded your first documents on 17/05/2059 and when they received all the documents they have verified your account on 24/05/2019. They have also sent you responsible gaming material reminding you on their responsible gaming tools.

When on the 26/05/2019 received an email from you in which you showed that you had some problems they have decided to self-exclude your account.

We assure you that as a regulator, we strive to ensure that our licensees adhere to the strictest levels of player protection but we do understand that there are times where gambling ceases to be a form of entertainment for some. Regrettably, no central database facilitating exclusion from all MGA-licensed operators exists and in all honesty even if such a database did in fact exist, it will only protect problem gamblers from accessing MGA-licensed online casinos; accessibility to online casinos licensed under other jurisdictions is still possible, rendering such an approach highly ineffective.

Whilst we are unable to assist you in retrieving money you have wagered, we would like to provide you with an effective means of protecting yourself through the use of blocking software which will completely removes access to any gambling-related websites. If you are determined to remove the temptation altogether, we can make this software available to you free of charge. Naturally, we also recommend approaching professionals who are able to assist you further with your challenges.

If you would like further instructions relating to the free blocking software please let us know and we will send you the necessary information.

Regards,

Hi Doerko.

I also did not expect such a result, especially when Pogg consulted the whole case with MGA. Unfortunately, nowhere is it defined how signs of dependency show, and licensing authorities (some) only require casinos to look for any signs of dependence in their behavior. Even if they were worried about a player, they would certainly not close his account immediately, but would like information and income from him and verify that the player is not dependent and wants to continue playing. In your case, you are in conflict with the right to free will.

To your comments:

Your verification was completed within one month, and I wouldn't see a problem with that. It is possible that the casino's calls for verification ended in spam, and according to the MGA, the casino attempted verification.

I understand that for you, the amount you lost a lot of money is, but this is very subjective. This may not be the case for players from other countries. There are no rules for such situations. Blocking someone's account just because they cancel the withdrawal x times in a row or deposit a higher amount is something I don't expect to ever be put into practice.

Currently, Sweden's strictest licensing authority has two important conditions not implemented, namely the verification of income if the player wants to deposit larger amounts of money and the panic button, which when the player presses the account is blocked. Still, if a player wants to play, it won't stop him.

The casino responded to your message that you had problems immediately and your account was closed. I'm afraid there's not much to catch. Although Pogg has decided in your favor, MGA has sided with the casino and that is the decision of the regulator.

In this case, I'm afraid we have no way to help you. We are very sorry.

Ahoj Doerko.

Tiež som nečakal takýto výsledok, zvlášť keď Pogg konzultoval celý prípad s MGA. Bohužiaľ, nikde nie je definované ako sa prejavujú náznaky závislosti a licenčné autority (niektoré) iba požadujú aby kasína hľadali v správaní nejaké náznaky závislosti. Ak by aj mali obavu o nejakého hráča, určite by mu hneď nezatvorili účet ale chceli by od neho informácie a príjmoch a overili by, že hráč nie je závislý a chce pokračovať v hraní. Vo vašom prípade idete do konfliktu s právom na slobodnú vôľu.

Ku Vašim poznámkam:

Vaša verifikácia prebehla do jedného mesiaca a v tom by som problém nevidel. Je možné, že výzvy kasína na verifikáciu skončili v spame a podľa MGA sa kasíno o verifikáciu pokúšalo.

Chápem, že pre Vás je suma čo ste prehrali veľa peňazí, ale toto je veľmi subjektívne. Pre hráčov z iných krajín to tak byť nemusí. Na takéto situácie neexistujú žiadne pravidlá. Zablokovať niekomu účet len preto, že x krát po sebe zruší výber alebo vložil vyššiu sumu je niečo čo nepredpokladám že sa niekedy zavedie do praxe.

Momentálne najstriktnejšia Švédska licenčná autorita má neimplementované dve dôležité podmienky a to overenie príjmov pokiaľ chce hráč vkladať väčšie sumy peňazí a panic tlačidlo, ktoré keď hráč stlačí zablokuje sa mu účet. Stále pokiaľ hráč chce hrať, nezastaví ho to.

Kasíno na Vašu správu že máte problémy reagovalo hneď a účet Vám zavreli. Obávam sa, že tu nie je veľmi čoho sa chytať. Pogg síce rozhodol vo Váš prospech, ale MGA sa priklonila na stranu kasína a to je rozhodnutie regulátora.

V tomto prípade sa obávam že Vám nemáme ako pomôcť. Je nám to veľmi ľúto.

This email after they blocked my account was wroten 26.5. Email where I was desribing my feelings (in comentary up there) ive written 24.5.