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I am got 20FS upon registration. played and earned about 2$.bonus have wagering 35×. I am finished wagering with that starting 2$. or 82uq(uq =casinos some kind of cryptocurrency) bonus was expired, and disappeared from my account. in that point I am had about about 150$. then i am contacted bspin support for explanations about casinos fee and taxes. Ozzy from support is told me they chargers 10× of requested withdrawing amount.then they suddenly take it from my account about 120$ , left me 20$ with explanation that is max cashout. but that is max cashout for 20fs. and I didn't cashout money from FS. that bonus is expired that moment when I am finished wagering. and money is become real balance. but that guy Ozzy was offended to my complaints on 10× fee. he is just take away money. I know its decision by one man, not casino. And I know they haves in their T&C for every possible situations. but still, it was no be any terms violation how its he said. Casino looks very good and its probably fair with good RTP, and I dont want to sunds vinny, but I am earned that money from nothing.

Dear dancerreddevile,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your negative experience.

Do I understand it correctly, that you have accumulated your winnings purely from Sign-up Free Spins?

Could you please advise if the maximum win rule was part of the terms and conditions of the bonus that was credited to your account?

I would like to emphasize, that according to our Fair Gambling Codex https://casino.guru/fair-gambling-codex-for-casinos#win-limits, we consider imposed win limit to be unfair and predatory, only when it’s applied to a real money game, however, we accept bonus T&Cs that restrict the maximum cash out from a bonus play.

The moment when the maximum limit is applied to a player's balance can be different, the most common moments are when the wagering of the bonus is complete and the bonus is converted to real money balance, or when a player requests a withdrawal of their winnings.

If there is any additional information that would support your case, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Tomas

Dear Thomas,

I did not express myself or describe the case so that you would understand why I objected. The problem arose when I wanted to withdraw money. I did play with the bonus money at first, but when I finished the conditional spin I didn't even have $15. then the money went to "real balance" and I continued to play. only then I made 150$ and it lasted for days. I wrote an email to their customer service, to find out about the commission that the casino charges for withdrawals, because I have already read several complaints from players about the predatory commission on the withdrawal of any money that is not from the deposit. Ozzy, That's how the bar is signed, he told me that it can be 10x of the payout. when I replied that I had not seen it anywhere until now, he just got offended, suddenly took about $120 from me and said that now I can withdraw the $20 that was left on the account. I earned about $2 from the 20 FS received, when I finished the conditional trade I had maybe $15 at most. his excuse is that they can charge a 10x commission on a payout. regardless of what they have in the T&C I think it's unfair! they have everything in the T&C, even that they don't have to pay me anything.

poštovani Tomas,

nisam se izrazio ili opisao slučaj da bi ste razumeli zbog čega imam prigovor. Problem je nastao kada sam hteo da podignem novac. Ja jesam u početku igrao sa bonus novcem, ali kada sam završio uslovni obrt ja nisam imao ni 15$. tada je novac prešao u "real balance" i ja sam nastavio da igram. tek tada sam zaradio 150$ i to je trajalo danima. napisao sam email njihovoj korisničkoj službi, da se informišem o proviziju koju kazino naplaćuje za isplatu, jer sam već više puta pročitao zalbe igrača na predatorsku proviziju na isplatu bilo kakvog novca koji nije iz depozita. Ozzy, Tako se bar potpisuje, mi je poručio da može da bude i 10× od isplate. kada sam mu odgovorio da nigde nisam to video do sad, on se prosto uvredio iznenada mi je skinuo oko 120$ i rekao da sada mogu sa podignem onih 20$ što je ostalo na nalogu. ja sam od dobijenih 20 FS zaradio oko 2$, kada sam završio uslovni obrt imao sam možda 15$ najviše. njegov izgovor je to da oni mogu da naplate proviziju 10× na isplatu. bez obzira što to imaju u T&C smatram da je to nepravedno! oni imaju sve u T&C, čak i to da ne moraju ništa da mi isplate.

Thanks for the explanation.

Do you have your interaction with the casino representative saved? Please send me the chat transcript or screenshots to my email at tomas@casino.guru for review, alternatively, post the information here.

Dear dancerreddevile,

We are extending the timer by 7 days. Please, be aware that in case you fail to respond in the given time frame or don’t require any further assistance, we will reject the complaint.

Dear Thomas,

all the transcript from bspin was deleted, because I moved their answers to unwanted messages. I also wrote to lcb.org, but they contacted the casino rep. and got the answer that it is an ordinary "player bonus" and that it is all nicely written in their T&C. But now I ask you nicely; when the money from the bonus goes to the real balance,,? I don't know what is not clear here?! the moment I made the required 35x spin, I had $20 in my account. then I received an automatic message that the bonus was closed, and that the money was transferred to the real balance, but not enough for the minimum payout. then I continued to play with "real balance", and after maybe ten days I had maybe $150. only then did I write a mail to bspin support, because I saw on many forums that players complain about too high commissions. The lady from bspin replied that they charge up to 10x for the first payment?!! and so they took off about $120, left $20 and said now you can withdraw your money. it's not about bonus money at all, because I continued to play with the $15 I got from the bonus, and reached 150. The bonus was over a long time ago, at least that's how I got the automatic message. Now bspin claims it's just bonus money after all?! But it didn't. maybe I'm not expressing myself properly so you don't understand me. from 20 spins I earned $3. after i played 35x conditional spin , i had $20 maybe. not enough for minimum payout. i continued playing, and when i made 150$, bspin acts like i got it from free spins. I really don't know what is so complicated here? I see that bspin has hedged with its famous T&C. they also have an item that they don't have to pay anything, if they find it appropriate, in a given situation?! they also have an item where they charge a commission of ×10. on $100 they will charge $1000 for the first payout?!!? what is that, if that's not predatory, I don't know what is. who else charges that? and they are a casino from the metaspin group?! one player somehow manages to make $100 out of their $3, and they won't even pay that?! What if I won $10,000?

poštovani Tomas,

sav transkript sa bspin mi je izbrisan,jer sam njihove odgovore premestio u nepoželjne poruke. Pisao sam i na lcb.org, ali oni su kontaktirali casino rep. i dobili odgovor da je to običan "bonus igrača" i da sve to lepo piše u njihovoj T&C. Ali ja vas sada lepo pitam; kada novac sa bonusa prelazi u real balance,,? Ne znam šta ovde nije jasno?! onog trenutka kada sam izvršio zahtevano obrt od 35×, ja sam imao nam je od 20$ na računu. tada mi je stigla autonatska poruka da je bonus zatvoren, i da je novac prebacen na real balance, ali nedovoljno za minimalnu isplatu . onda sam nastavio da igram sa "real balance" , i posle možda desetak dana sam imao možda 150$. tek tada sam napisao mail na bspin support, jer sam video na mnogim forumima da se igrači žale na previsoke provizije. Gospođa iz bspin su mi odgovorila da za prvu isplatu naplaćuju i do 10×?!! i tako du mi skinuli oko 120$ , ostavili 20$ i rekli sad možete da podignete svoj novac. uopšte se ne radi o bonus novcu, zato jer sam nastavio da igram sa tih 15$ dobijenog od bonusa, i stigao do 150. Bonus je završen bio odavno, bar sam tako dobio automatsku poruku. Sada bspin tvrdi da je to ipak samo bonus novac?! Ali nije. mozda se ja ne izjašnjavam kako treba pa me ne razumete. od 20 spinova Sam zaradio 3$. nakon što sam odigrao 35× uslovni obrt , imao sam 20$ možda. nedovoljno za minimalnu isplatu.nastavio sam da igram, i kada sam napravio 150$,bspin se ponaša kao da sam to dobio od bespatnih spinova. stvarno ne znam šta je ovde to toliko komplikovano? vidim da se bspin ogradio sa svojim čuvenim T&C. tu imaju i stavku da ne mora ništa da isplate, ako to nalaze za shodno, u datoj situaciji?! imaju i stavku gde naplaćuju proviziju od ×10. na 100$ oni će da naplate 1000$ za prvu isplatu?!!? šta je to, ako to nije predatorski ,ja ne znam šta jeste. ko to još naplaćuje? i oni su kazino iz metaspin grupacije?! jedan igrač uspe nekako da napravi 100 $ od njihovih 3$, i oni neće ni to da isplate?! Šta da sam dobio 10000$?

I understand the situation, thanks again for your reply.

Please understand we are asking only for supplementary information to illustrate your case as it's much more pertinent to have a complete picture of the situation when confronting the casino.

Thank you very much, dancerreddevile, for providing the necessary information. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Tomas (tomas.k@casino.guru) who will be at your service. I wish you the best of luck and hope the problem will be resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.  

Hi dancerreddevile,

I've reviewed your case and fully understand your concerns. I'll try my best to help you with the issue by contacting the casino.

I'd like to ask Bspin.io Casino to join this conversation and share more information regarding the case.

Could you provide an explanation for why the player's winnings have been capped even after fulfilling the wagering conditions?

Thank you.

Best regards,

Tomas

Hi guys,

Let me jump in and thanks to dancerreddevil for coming out with an issue so we can resolve it.

The T&C state that the maximum withdrawal amount from gameplay with bonuses is 10x the bonus amount. This means that if the player had won 150$ with 20FS he would have been able to withdraw 10x this amount so even 1500$ would be allowed. In this case the player won 3$ with the bonus and is able to withdraw 30$. Ofc this is after they go through the wagering requirements for a particular bonus. You have to understand that this kind of a bonus is real money non deposit bonus and without such precautions it would not be sustainable to have them in offer. But having said this we should really think of a better way to enforce this rule without withdrawal of any amount from the player account as I understand it might be frustrating having a certain amount and than withdrawn. 😕

hi bspin, you really seem professional when you respond so quickly. but this statement of yours will not go over here like you did ns lcb.org. it's not the bonus money you took from me. there is the exact amount I had in the account, when I completed the conditional turnover of 35 ×. and it's bonus money, everything after that i earned is real balance. so now I invite you to tell the correct information here. When I finished the conditional trade, I didn't even have the minimum payment. that was bonus money, $20! as I continued to play, I still had no conditional turn. the bonus closed and I received the mods to be able to request a payout. you first told me that you charge a fee of 10x of the winnings, and then you started the story about the famous bonus. Come on, please explain when the bonus ends, and when it switches to a regular account without any further conditions. I also invite you to explain why you are charging 10x the payout?! what casino still charges that? for this very reason, there is also an international law on betting shops, which says that you cannot do whatever you want. the fact that you wrote your T&C, it's a shame for that Meta group. Such a powerful corporation, and you're messing around here for $100. And I see on various forums that I am not the only case, and that many players complain about taxes and confiscation of money. Maybe we should all get together and write a petition first to your Meta gaming, then a joint lawsuit in the Curacao court. If you are not in a position to pay out winnings, put netflix instead of slots and we will pay you to watch series, and everyone will be happy...

zdravo bspin, zaista delujete profesionalno kada se ovako brzo javljate na odgovor. ali ova vaša konstatacija vam neće proći ovde kao što ste uspeli ns lcb.org. to nije bonus novac koji ste mi oduzeli. postoji tačan iznos koji sam imao na računu, kada sam završio uslovni obrt od 35 ×. i to je bonus novac, sve nakon toga što sam zaradio je real balance. tako da vas sada pozivam da ovde kažete tačne podatke. Kada sam završio uslovni obrt nisam imao ni za minimalnu isplatu. to je bio bonus novac, 20$! kako sam nastavio da igram, dalje nisam imao nikakav uslovni obrt. bonus se zatvorio i dobio sam modifikacije da mogu da tražim isplatu. vi ste mi prvo rekli da naplaćujete taksu od 10× od dobitka, a posle ste počeli priču o famoznom bonusu. Hajde sada lepo objasnite kada se završava bonus , i kada prelazi u običan račun bez daljih ikakvih uslova. isto tako vas pozivam da obrazložite zašto naplaćujete 10× na isplatu?! koji to kazino još naplaćuje? baš iz tog razloga isto tako postoji internacionalni zakon o kladionicama , koji kaže da vi ne možete da radite šta god hoćete. to što ste vi napisali vaš T&C , to je sramota ta Meta grupaciju. Takva moćna korporacija, a brukate se ovde za 100$. A vidim po raznim forumima da nisam usamljen slučaj, i da se mnogo igrača žali na takse i konfiskovanje novca. Možda bi trebali da se svi skupimo, pa napišemo peticiju prvo vašem Meta gaming, pa posle zajednička tužba u Curacao sud. Ako niste u situaciji da isplaćuje dobitke, stavite umesto slotova netflix i mi ćemo da vam plaćamo za gledanje serija, I svi ce biti srećni...

This is exactly why we are happy to have a third party arbitrage player requests so we can get an honest resolution.

Please @Tomas let us know if you need more information to resolve this.

Also, *Minimum withdrawal at Bspin is approximately 0.75$"

would you be so kind @bspin.io to answer my questions.

1. How much money did I have when the bonus and conditional turnover ended?

2. what are you charging a fee of 10x on the payment?!

I am also glad that there is someone like Casino Guru, who stands with the people against the evil imperialist corporations.

da li biste bili ljubazni @bspin.io da odgovorite na moja pitanja.

1. Koliko novca sam imao kada se završili bonus, i uslovni obrt?

2. šta to vi naplaćujete taksu od 10× na isplatu?!

I meni je drago da postoji neko kao casino Guru, koji je uz narod protiv zlih imperijalistickih korporacija.

1. How much money did I have when the bonus and conditional turnover ended?

It appears you had 20$ when you finished the wagering requirement for the 20 no deposit Free spins offer. This would be eligible for withdrawal right away as you would be allowed up to 30$ withdrawal. You kept playing and reached 150$ but the withdrawal cap is 30$ due to your bonus win amount of 3$.

2. what are you charging a fee of 10x on the payment?!

This is not a fee. Itt a cap on withdrawal amount for free bonuses as described above.

Also, evil imperialist corporation comment really hurts our feelings as we run the entire operation on crypto predominately Bitcoin.

@tomas you got the data now. bspin.io question for you: can I play with bonzs money in your casino, and then rebalance? or do I have to wait for payment, as soon as we reach the conditional turnover?

and when do you think the FS bonus ends? the moment I completed the conditional spin, my bonus showed as expired. I ask you now, am I still a bonus player after that, or do I become a standard player without any conditions? don't be contradictory sir. pleonasm and pluralism prevail in your sentences. and my comment is a reflection on your behavior towards me. I'm sorry, that's how I perceive you, and I feel like Oliver Twist with his iconic line. 10x commission,?! it's your payment escape door.

@tomas dobili ste sada ste podatke. bspin.io pitanje za vas: da li u vasem kazinu mogu da igrsm sa bonzs novecem , i nakon toga da predjem u re balance? ili moram da tatrazim isplata , čim dostignemo uslovni obrt?

a kada se po vama završava bonus od FS? onog trenutka kada sam završio uslovni obrt, bonus mi se prikazao kao istekao. ja vas sad pitam, da li sam nakon toga i dalje bonus igrač, ili postajem standardan igrač bez ikakvih uslova? nemojte da ste kontradiktorni gospodine. pleonazam i pluralizam preovlađuju u vašim rečenicama. a moj komentar je refleksija na vase ponašanje prema meni. žao mi je, ja vas tako doživljavam, i osećam se kao kao Oliver Twist sa njegovom kultnim rečenicom. 10× provizija,?! to su vam vrata za bekstvo od isplate.

Dear all,

Kindly grant us additional time to complete the investigation. We will provide an update once we have reached a conclusion.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Tomas

Dear dancerreddevile,

Before we proceed, could you please confirm if you received the FS bonus without making any deposit? Basically, I'm asking if it was a no-deposit bonus.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Tomas

yes it was a no deposit bonus of 20 spins for the fruit zen game. bet per spin was maybe $0.2 but not sure. It is actually often a bonus, which is obtained by mining. 5 spins are given every hour for activity on the site.

da, to jeste bio bonus bez depozita od 20 spinova za igru fruit zen. ulog po spinu je bio možda 0,2$, ali nisam siguran. To je u stvari često bonus, koji se dobija rudarenjem. Na svakih sat vremena se dobija po 5 spinova za aktivnost na sajtu.

Dear Bspin.io Casino,

Can you please clarify which rule you used to cap the player's winnings? I only found the rule applicable to reload and deposit bonuses:

"Article 5.12

Where any type of reload or deposit bonus has been granted to you, subject to you having met all wagering conditions, you might be limited to a maximum withdrawal value of 10 times your deposit amount. Any remaining balance will be considered forfeited. This clause will only be applied at the discretion of the management. Progressive jackpot wins are exempt from this clause."

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Tomas

Hello Tomas,

8. INSTANT BONUSES

Article 8.1

• Any bonus that is cash or bonus received from the casino, for example via Customer Support, is classified as an instant bonus. We reserve the right to limit any winnings from an instant bonus to 10 times the value of that instant bonus. For example, if you receive a 100,000 μBTC. instant bonus, a maximum of 1,000,000 μBTC. is eligible for withdrawal if we choose to enact this clause.

This was used.

Dear Bspin.io Casino,

Could you kindly clarify how the player received the bonus? I am curious to know if the player was informed about this rule being applied to the bonus. I have gone through your website and found that the rule is only mentioned in the T&Cs for deposit and reload bonuses.

Also, the link itself says so: https://bspin.io/home/depositbonustermsandconditions

Additionally, when a common user reads these terms, it seems to be quite confusing to understand that "Instant Bonuses" should refer to Free Spin bonuses, which at the same time could be No deposit bonuses as well. Let's have a look:

What I'm trying to clarify is whether players are made aware of the specific terms when the FS bonus is not available on the website.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Kind regards,

Tomas

We would like to ask the casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’ which may negatively affect its rating.

Dear dancerreddevile,

Since the casino has stopped responding, we have no other choice but to consider their position as final. After consulting the case with my team, our position is a bit different though. Here's why:

From the casino's standpoint, you have violated a rule, entitling them to cap your winnings.

From our perspective, this particular case deserved better treatment. Although it was a no-deposit free spins bonus, meaning it was essentially free money for players, we believe that in this situation the rules should have been clearly communicated to you. Unfortunately, this was not the case. It is quite difficult to locate the terms for this bonus, as they are not visible on the website, and are instead hidden within the terms for the 1st deposit bonus, labelled as an "Instant bonus". Moreover, there are other terms for no-deposit and free spins bonuses that do not have a maximum cashout condition, which can be confusing even for experienced players.

Concluding all the information above, I am forced to close this case as unresolved. 'AGAINST FAIR GAMBLING CODEX'.

However, if the casino decides to react, we will reopen the complaint, and you will be notified by email. 

We can imagine finding some compromise at least, but without cooperation from the casino side, there is hardly something that can be achieved.

There might be one more way though. You can try to file a complaint with the gaming authority that regulates the casino - Gaming Curacao. It is possible to file a complaint via the official website (http://www.gaming-curacao.com/) using a "Contact" button or by sending your complaint to info@gaming-curacao.com.

I am sorry I could not be of more help on this occasion.

Best regards,

Tomas